Will there be an Order of Battle 2

[bru888]

I see. So there´s a good chance of creating more recent campaigns, as Korea 1950 or some in the Middle East. It would be very interesting.

I'm telling you (although I officially don't know my rear end from my elbow), all 20th Century conflicts would be a comparative slam dunk (Americanism, from basketball, for a sure and easy thing) for this game.

[KarisFraMauro]

On the subject of modern warfare, I remember with fondness the last (I think?) iteration of Panzer General, namely People's General. Very solid premise, in fact you can say that by positing a conflict between China and the West it was ahead of its time. I had loads of fun with that Crusader mobile artillery, although I seem to remember reading somewhere the actual defence project was even more of a fiasco than is normal for procurement... Plus it mixed up the game mechanics a lot more than previous incarnations by totally changing how air power worked. I liked it! So a similar deal for Order of Battle feels plausible. Although going in the other direction with civil war stuff gets me curious.

One grumble at the moment with Order of Battle is the occasional jump in objective difficulty. You'll have most mission objectives that are completely reasonable, but every now and then there's one that (to me at least) is a complete brick wall. Can anyone tell me how on earth I'm supposed to protect Casablanca for eight turns in Kriegsmarine?! I can't control the defence units, which are understrength anyway. By the time my air force arrives it's already over. No hope of naval units arriving remotely in time. Either I'm missing something obvious, which in fairness does happen, or this is just utterly impossible.

[Mascarenhas]

Maybe for historical accuracy purposes but, in this case, why play a game you cannot ever win?

[Mascarenhas]

Unless, of course, you use some magical potion and paradise the enemy until the cavalry comes.

[bebro]

Haven't been involved much in making KM myself so I'm not too familiar with it.

Looking into the Operation Torch scenario I understand it is a secondary objective, so you can still win the scenario overall and progress in the campaign, even without this one goal being met.

If it is intended to be that way I can't say atm, have to check back with ppl.

[GabeKnight]

Can anyone tell me how on earth I'm supposed to protect Casablanca for eight turns in Kriegsmarine?! I can't control the defence units, which are understrength anyway. By the time my air force arrives it's already over. No hope of naval units arriving remotely in time. Either I'm missing something obvious, which in fairness does happen, or this is just utterly impossible.

Kriegsmarine Op Torch
Kriegsmarine: Operation Torch (defend the coast)

Granted, a little bit of luck doesn't hurt, too...

[KarisFraMauro]

Thanks! Although it seems like it is impossible unless I get a specific bomber upgrade? I'm not pleased by the prospect of starting the campaign over... Plus it mentions getting in a strike on the transports, but they've already landed troops before I can hit. Still it's something to work with. And good to see I'm not the only one finding it an exercise in frustration.

[GabeKnight]

Although it seems like it is impossible unless I get a specific bomber upgrade?

Yeah, you need to save your spec points for the "PlanZ" spec, that gives you the carrier and Junker tact. bombers (more range/speed) earlier in the campaign. The otherwise available Heinkel floatplanes arrive too late at the African coast to be of any help.

Without them you'll have to be really lucky to achieve it, probably have to play on a lower difficulty, too. I've read only once about a player mentioning to be able to hold the town long enough without the spec...

[KarisFraMauro]

There's mention of a sub being helpful too in the link you provided. Hmm. Not to be too critical but if the only way to acheive an objective is by making specific decisions prior to even being aware of the existence of the objective, that feels like bad design... Maybe I'll switch to that middle Blitzkrieg campaign. Although I think I've been a little spoiled by doing Endsieg first and getting all the funky tech.

Related question, would you say there are a lot of situations like the Casablanca one? I can think of one or two others I've encountered, although they may not be quite as bad. It does make me worry about whether or not the Japanese campaigns are worth it. As much as I'm liking Order of Battle (made a positive review for it on steam) they do come across as a bit on the pricey side.

Not really related question (heh), does anyone know if Fantasy General II is closer to Order of Battle or Panzer Corps? Or, maybe neither for that matter...

[TheFilthyCasual]

Something like the Falklands, even if it was just one or two missions long, would suit OOB very well given the combined air-land-sea nature of it.

[GabeKnight]

Related question, would you say there are a lot of situations like the Casablanca one?

I think not. It was really an exception in that campaign that you needed a specific spec to achieve an objective (and by the way, there's like absolutely no reward for achieving it).

There's plenty of rather challenging objectives throughout the OoB campaigns. Usually some "capture before turn X" objective. But none of them requires any specific spec combination, as far as I can recall at the moment.

[KarisFraMauro]

It's always been really weird to me how the Falklands conflict is so utterly ignored by media such as television and especially movies. Apparently there are one or two films out there, but they're pretty tangental and mostly just dealing with PTSD and the aftermath. Like even the invasion of Grenada literally got a film with Clint Eastwood for crying out loud! And it's not as if the UK is afraid to make war movies. Just look at Dunkirk and 1917 for example. I think there's something cultural at play here, like a reluctance by the entertainment industry to paint Margaret Thatcher in a positive light. At least there are some good books on the subject. As far as I know it's the last time a submarine saw real action, unless you count launching missles or that rather sneaky North Korean incident with the Cheonan. Certainly it has to be last time a submarine was lost in action, when a British helicopter put a missle through the con tower of a surfaced Argentinian sub. Just goes to show surfacing in the middle of a war zone rather defeats the entire purpose of a sub...

It's reassuring to hear there aren't that many frustrating objectives. There's one in the first mission of Panzerkrieg that has me scratching my head, but it's more a case of it being poorly worded I think. So I'm supposed to keep a couple units "around" a hex? For how long? How do I know when I can leave? Does the objective get cancelled if I heal them? If I don't heal them? It's rather opaque.

[timberwolf15]

It's always been really weird to me how the Falklands conflict is so utterly ignored by media such as television and especially movies. Apparently there are one or two films out there, but they're pretty tangental and mostly just dealing with PTSD and the aftermath. Like even the invasion of Grenada literally got a film with Clint Eastwood for crying out loud! And it's not as if the UK is afraid to make war movies. Just look at Dunkirk and 1917 for example. I think there's something cultural at play here, like a reluctance by the entertainment industry to paint Margaret Thatcher in a positive light. At least there are some good books on the subject. As far as I know it's the last time a submarine saw real action, unless you count launching missles or that rather sneaky North Korean incident with the Cheonan. Certainly it has to be last time a submarine was lost in action, when a British helicopter put a missle through the con tower of a surfaced Argentinian sub. Just goes to show surfacing in the middle of a war zone rather defeats the entire purpose of a sub...

It's reassuring to hear there aren't that many frustrating objectives. There's one in the first mission of Panzerkrieg that has me scratching my head, but it's more a case of it being poorly worded I think. So I'm supposed to keep a couple units "around" a hex? For how long? How do I know when I can leave? Does the objective get cancelled if I heal them? If I don't heal them? It's rather opaque.

I have Amazon prime it was there or maybe on youtube but I think on amazon where I saw a lot of free movies / documentaries about the Falklands. From my recollection the thing I got out of it was. For a lot of years the citizens of Argentina especially the young children in school were taught that the British colony was their land so eventually Argentina had proper indoctrinated their citizens to the point that sure let's attack them and take back our land so the war got started or whatever ya wanna call it. so then the Brits show up and again, this is from my recollection which may not be entirely accurate the Brits fought only on the colony land areas they did not attack mainland Argentina. So the Brits arrive and one thing that happened the Argentina jets flew in low and sunk some ships and caused havoc one incident that happened was a Brit lieutenant or someone of lower rank who had been fighting there for a few days told a much more senior officer when a British boat arrived that they need to get all the soldiers off the boat because they are sitting ducks so the Brit senior officer's attitude was he is not going to let a subordinate tell him to do anything nor listen to him. Then not to long after this a missile or missiles hit the ship and killed, maimed, burned alive, and destroyed moral and was an embarrassment to the Brits of the number of soldiers that got all screwed up. Then a lot of times the Argentines would not fight for very long or very much the land forces. Thats about all I remember.

[KarisFraMauro]

I'd definitely recommend some of the books, there's a lot of fascinating stories to be told. In one memorable instance a bunch of S.A.S. got sent in but they underestimated the cold and had to be rescued themselves. I think one of them even froze to death.

You're on point regarding the Argentinian jets coming in low, but it's actually a little complicated. By coming in low they were able to better avoid the British anti-air defences, however there was a minimum altitude for the bombs they dropped. So the BBC reported bombs hitting the deck and bouncing off without detonating, which horrified the military censors. Mind you the real danger wasn't bombs but missles, specifically the French exocet. Behind the scenes British intelligence was sabotaging sales by France to Argentina, because the exocet was a true beast.

Then there's aspects like how Argentinian officers treated Falklands civilians, (bad, apparently there was even an Irish connection) and how they treated their own soldiers in the lower ranks (worse). Honestly there's so much stuff to work with it really does deserve the big screen treatment.

[Snake97644]

On the subject of modern warfare, I remember with fondness the last (I think?) iteration of Panzer General, namely People's General. Very solid premise, in fact you can say that by positing a conflict between China and the West it was ahead of its time. I had loads of fun with that Crusader mobile artillery, although I seem to remember reading somewhere the actual defence project was even more of a fiasco than is normal for procurement... Plus it mixed up the game mechanics a lot more than previous incarnations by totally changing how air power worked. I liked it! So a similar deal for Order of Battle feels plausible.

PeG was one of my favorites, I would like to see a modern combat rendition similar to that game. I also agree that Korea and the Middle East wars would be good. That being said I still would like to see a China or Italian campaign, some of those underrepresented areas, were there could be some good "what if" outcomes.

I see there is a Free French custom campaign in the works, that should be interesting. Hats off to Erik and Bruce for pulling that one together.

[bru888]

I see there is a Free French custom campaign in the works, that should be interesting. Hats off to Erik and Bruce for pulling that one together.

Never count your campaigns before they hatch! So put your hats back on for now but yes, we are looking forward to working on Free France thanks to all the research that ColonelY has put together. Truly remarkable. First though, Winter War 1940 in beta in a couple of days.

[KarisFraMauro]

There's potential for an Italian campaign to be sure, although it's not something I know much about. Vaguely seem to remember reading somewhere they had good subs. Overall apparently their level of industrialization and education was really miniscule though. Now China on the other hand...

Two things make it more promising to my mind. Firstly is the length. People forget that fighting went on there for a long, long time. Certainly it was distinct from Italy, where battles in the actual peninsula were only at the tail end of WWII. Secondly is the size. China is huge, unfortunately for the Japanese! I've done a little bit of reading on the topic (It was something positively reviewed in The Economist book section, forget the precise title but it was along the lines of "How the west lost China") and the Nationalist army would do the best it could and then fall back where appropriate. Of course the operation of the Japanese air force behind the front lines posed serious challenges. And the communists? Effectively they sat the entire thing out. Shocking to learn they exaggerated their role, doubtless.

[Duplex]

Two things make it more promising to my mind. Firstly is the length. People forget that fighting went on there for a long, long time. Certainly it was distinct from Italy, where battles in the actual peninsula were only at the tail end of WWII. Secondly is the size. China is huge, unfortunately for the Japanese! I've done a little bit of reading on the topic (It was something positively reviewed in The Economist book section, forget the precise title but it was along the lines of "How the west lost China") and the Nationalist army would do the best it could and then fall back where appropriate. Of course the operation of the Japanese air force behind the front lines posed serious challenges. And the communists? Effectively they sat the entire thing out. Shocking to learn they exaggerated their role, doubtless.

I would start playing OOB again if a China DLC came out. I can't speak for others, but I'd love to play as the Nationalists in a fleshed out campaign.

Hm, I haven't appeared on the forum for quite a while, I wonder if bru (and Gabeknight, too) still remembers me..

Anyways, shameless self promotion here, if you do want to check out some individual custom scenarios where you can play as the Nationalists using existing units, check out my old scenarios page, Duplex's Scenarios. lol

[bru888]

Hm, I haven't appeared on the forum for quite a while, I wonder if bru (and Gabeknight, too) still remembers me..

Of course we do, Duplex! You have designed some fine scenarios and made other valuable contributions here. It is nice to have you back.

[KarisFraMauro]

Speaking of custom scenarios, how come there's never anything new in the "community content" opening menu? Normally I don't really concern myself with it, but I just had a fantastic multiplayer game of coral sea and was invited to another. Problem is, mine is version 6.2 and the new one is version 7.2, so I guess I'm out of luck? I've been poking around in the scenario section of the forum and while there clearly is a process for obtaining custom stuff it's pretty intimidating. Downloading files and then shuffling them around is not a thing the latest version of windows makes friendly...

I thought maybe the issue with inaccessible multiplayer maps was not purchasing the relevant DLC, but I did just buy Rising Sun (it's good!) and that doesn't seem to have unlocked anything. Hmm.