The Dustbin

[stockwellpete]

I think one serious question that we have to ask Slitherine is why dkalenda's account was reactivated after he was suspended for a short time this season. I understand that Slitherine send a warning message when anomalies on the server occur and if there is no reply then the player is banned from multi-player. It seems this time it was enough for dkalenda to say to them that he had a faulty internet connection to get his account reactivated. I have just been told this evening that in another match dkalenda re-loaded 225 times, which dwarfs the previous record of 99 times that I referred to in the first post of this thread. So what checking was done?

I appreciate that staff are not primarily employed to check servers for possible anomalies but these re-loads seem to have been happening on an industrial scale this season (and very probably in previous seasons too) so the checking needs to be more vigorous. And maybe Slitherine need to let tournament organisers know when a player has been suspended by them so we can check if they are playing in a tournament? It cannot be happening very often but when it does it needs to be dealt with quickly.

[paulmcneil]

I think one serious question that we have to ask Slitherine is why dkalenda's account was reactivated after he was suspended for a short time this season. I understand that Slitherine send a warning message when anomalies on the server occur and if there is no reply then the player is banned from multi-player. It seems this time it was enough for dkalenda to say to them that he had a faulty internet connection to get his account reactivated. I have just been told this evening that in another match dkalenda re-loaded 225 times, which dwarfs the previous record of 99 times that I referred to in the first post of this thread. So what checking was done?

I appreciate that staff are not primarily employed to check servers for possible anomalies but these re-loads seem to have been happening on an industrial scale this season (and very probably in previous seasons too) so the checking needs to be more vigorous. And maybe Slitherine need to let tournament organisers know when a player has been suspended by them so we can check if they are playing in a tournament? It cannot be happening very often but when it does it needs to be dealt with quickly.

Sounds like a good plan Pete

[Stefano63]

Congratulation ConstantinIX, well deserved!

Ciao
XLegione/Stefano63

[Schweetness101]

...in another match dkalenda re-loaded 225 times, which dwarfs the previous record of 99 times...

lol did he sit there for like 4 hours reloading turns over the course of a single match? That seems like borderline mental illness territory.

Is he banned by the forum as well? It would be interesting to see him comment on this, just out of curiosity.

[rbodleyscott]

I think one serious question that we have to ask Slitherine is why dkalenda's account was reactivated after he was suspended for a short time this season. I understand that Slitherine send a warning message when anomalies on the server occur and if there is no reply then the player is banned from multi-player. It seems this time it was enough for dkalenda to say to them that he had a faulty internet connection to get his account reactivated. I have just been told this evening that in another match dkalenda re-loaded 225 times, which dwarfs the previous record of 99 times that I referred to in the first post of this thread. So what checking was done?

I appreciate that staff are not primarily employed to check servers for possible anomalies but these re-loads seem to have been happening on an industrial scale this season (and very probably in previous seasons too) so the checking needs to be more vigorous. And maybe Slitherine need to let tournament organisers know when a player has been suspended by them so we can check if they are playing in a tournament? It cannot be happening very often but when it does it needs to be dealt with quickly.

If you want Slitherine to make changes in their protocols, you should contact them directly - it is quite likely that no-one from Slitherine will see this thread.

[SimonLancaster]

I am not an expert but when it says that dkalenda reloaded 225 times in one match (in one turn?) I begin to suspect some kind of error. Like when your screen freezes when you are on the forum and multiple posts get downloaded. Some kind of disconnection and the router shooting off millions of requests.

As I said, a thorough investigation is needed by people with more knowledge than us!

[harveylh]

This is a very sad situation. I have thought there was something different about games with dkalenda from the beginning (Season 2, my first season), but I thought he understood charges, pursuits and evades much better than anyone else I have ever played. And as we like to say good players make their own luck. I did not know that would end up being literally true. However it was nearly every game he had better than average luck. I am now surprised I actually beat him a few times, but in those games the better than average luck in my critical turns was apparently better than the manufactured luck in his turn.

This also explains why dkalenda would often take six, seven, even eight days to respond to a turn in my games with him (and I never claimed a game from him under the seven day rule though I regret it now). It takes time to run dozens (hundreds?) of restarts to get the spectacular luck he always seemed to receive when he needed it.

The few games I won were always very close and he always beat me in games that determined the division champion of which there were several. I now believe dkalenda was an average player who was willing to cheat to become an elite player. I am frustrated and angry by this. I am are sure other players feel the same way.

A future concern is considering dkalenda re-loaded his turns multiple times during multiple matches and Slitherine did not notify Pete or RBS. Also Slitherine suspended and then re-activated his account apparently without notifying Pete or RBS. I appreciate Slitherine has other and from their perspective more important things to worry about, but as already suggested a software fix that would not allow a restart without saving everything up to the point when you restart would be very helpful. So as RBS suggested, we need to lobby Slitherine for changes.

Harvey

[rs2excelsior]

Thanks all. The spreadsheet is an excellent idea, I should be able to knock one up. Thanks for offering to share. How do you find time for all four sections? I barely mange two.

If you want the template I set up (or if anyone else does!), here's a link you should be able to copy over and fill in:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

And it's been a lot at times, haha. I will probably drop back to three next season, but it's been manageable overall. I take what turns I can during the week after work and make up some time over the weekend.

[Schweetness101]

I am not an expert but when it says that dkalenda reloaded 225 times in one match (in one turn?) I begin to suspect some kind of error.

yeah 225 doesn't seem plausible, maybe it freaked out like you said and did like 15 of them each time he crashed the game or something

then again:

This also explains why dkalenda would often take six, seven, even eight days to respond to a turn in my games with him (and I never claimed a game from him under the seven day rule though I regret it now). It takes time to run dozens (hundreds?) of restarts to get the spectacular luck he always seemed to receive when he needed it.

so maybe he really was manually re-running it that many times

[MikeC_81]

Does make me laugh when I look back and read all the entries in the RNG debate that raged, insisting that Dkalenda won so many games because he was the best player, and the RNG had nothing to do with it That looks very funny now. But then again could perhaps explain why some people saw so many bizarre RNG results, and some almost none at all? The RNG was effectively being gamed, constant flicking of the coin to get 6 6s in a row as it were.

The RNG system is fine and has been tested to be fine on multiple occasions. I have always suspected though that given the rather lax protection in Slitherine's system that some cheating was going on and it probably still does go on. But for a reload to have occurred 99 times before Slitherine put a hit on the account is unacceptable. No one could possibly swallow the lie about an unreliable internet connection. Even 5 extra reloads in a single game should be a serious sign of trouble and this is coming from someone who has at multiple times switched service providers to deal with poor performance.

Slitherine needs to publish to the best of their ability dkalenda's load/save ratio. This would absolutely explain why people got such absurd RNG results.

If you want Slitherine to make changes in their protocols, you should contact them directly - it is quite likely that no-one from Slitherine will see this thread.

Who and where do I start sending emails to.

Someone just told me that they disconnected from 2-3 league games last season and got worried that they may get in trouble. This issue should be looked at with high priority because so much of the game is based on multiplayer and the PBEM. Turns shouldn’t be taken again. If it can’t be changed in this game then sort out the problem for the next games, for sure.

The way I have understood Slitherine's PBEM system, I have always known that it would be possible to save scum with little to no retaliation as long as one was judicial about using it (a key point of attack etc, etc) since an automated system must be programmed in with a fair degree of offsets to prevent a flood of false positives. But to find out that a match was reloaded 99 and 225 times. It begs the question of what if any automated safeguards are in place? And if there an automated safeguard system which spits out a report, how often does Sliterthine staff check it? Quite honestly it is absurd.

I guess I have been fortunate enough to not have played with many cheaters as there have only been a few instances where I raised my eyebrows where successful rolls were going exactly where they needed to be.

[SimonLancaster]

Yes, it seems like he is either insane or living in Outer Mongolia.

I remember playing Chaos Reborn in the deserts of the Middle East. Sometimes you would lose connection to the server and you couldn't get in (no response from host). You would have to wait and wait. On a bad day I would try numerous times and it just wouldn't let me in. I would have to wait an hour or so and then get back in. Connections would time out in the middle of turns. Most of the time I was okay, though. This was with a wireless router.

As mentioned above, at all times the game would save my last action and the turn wouldn't be reset. The thing about the Slitherine PBEM system is that it seems to work on the turn being submitted. I wonder if they can sort this out! Let's see!

[MikeC_81]

This should be sticked in the main forum btw. Not just the DL

I remember playing Chaos Reborn in the deserts of the Middle East. Sometimes you would lose connection to the server and you couldn't get in (no response from host). You would have to wait and wait. On a bad day I would try numerous times and it just wouldn't let me in. I would have to wait an hour or so and then get back in. Connections would time out in the middle of turns. Most of the time I was okay, though. This was with a wireless router.

As mentioned above, at all times the game would save my last action and the turn wouldn't be reset. The thing about the Slitherine PBEM system is that it seems to work on the turn being submitted. I wonder if they can sort this out! Let's see!

It is unlikely they will invest in this type of system. Given how unresponsive their forums server and PBEM server are at times, I doubt they will upgrade to this capability. In addition, FoG2 occurs all on the client-side. The main server only receives the save game file as the user reuploads it and the game literally replays the game turn on the opponent's machine with the saved file information, probably using an RNG seed number to replicate the rolls as they happen.

It is also unlikely they have more than a person who occasionally looks at the data for massive outliers given that dkalenda was able to cheat for so long. If manpower is the issue, then the players themselves need to be able to police it. Since we know the upload vs download ratios are kept, AND we know that slitherine is capable of emailing players automatically upon a new turn sitting in their folder, a good automated way would be to have that email notification also include the number of uploads to downloads for that particular game so that the player potentially being cheated knows about the current upload ratio for that game.

[Thunderbird]

I was wondering if this was possible. It happened to me in a non-league game, when my dog literally restarted my computer during a thunderstorm. Pete, what is the proper protocol when this kind of thing (forced restart) legitimately occurs in a league game? Perhaps a good solution if just for Slitherine to implement a system where your opponent is informed of the number of re-starts in a match (perhaps even at the end of a game)?

[Ludendorf]

This does seem to be a real weakness in this kind of PBEM system. It does give off a kind of 'working with bits of string tied between two cups to make a radio' kind of vibe. There has to be a better technical solution.

[MikeC_81]

viewtopic.php?f=501&t=100304

Just a PSA for all Slitherine players who use their PBEM system. We just had a player in FoG2 rack up an incredible 225 and 99 reloads (save-scumming) before being caught. It wasn't even at the hands of Sliterhine staff who suspended him, and the incredibly reinstated him after swallowing a "bad internet connection" story. A player had to report it to a tournament director (non staff member), who then had to request someone look into it before this became public.

Slitherine needs to do better. How can someone save scum 99 times in a single game before getting caught? Who is monitoring this? Is there an automated system looking out for it? When can we expect changes to improve on this behavior.

[SnuggleBunnies]

What a sordid affair. I agree that something must be done. As it stands, it's clear that somebody being more subtle about reloading would never get caught; say, once every few games and only for crucial turns. The best solution would be for the game to save whatever point it was at, but of course that would create all sorts of technical difficulties, not to mention it would be very tough on people trying to play MP who really do have bad connections. Even if Slitherine lowered the number of reloads to lead to suspension, and made suspension harder to get out of, it would only force people to be less obvious. For those with money, buying a new copy of the game and setting up a new account would be no problem. Seems like a lot of trouble, but then again so is reloading hundreds of times.

I'd had my suspicions about dkalenda in the past, but always chalked it up to my subconscious being a poor loser. It was also harder to detect, I think, because dkalenda is a genuinely good player, Division B at least and quite possibly a Division A player even without his... erm... enhanced abilities.

On a lighter note, I had this in retrospect pretty funny exchange with dkalenda during our Classical Antiquity match this season:

SnuggleBunnies: Enjoy slaughtering me again!
dkalenda: It's Div A any match is balanced!
SnuggleBunnies: Not when you're involved
SnuggleBunnies: NOOOOO WHY U RALLY

Hahahaha... oh man.

[MikeC_81]

What a sordid affair. I agree that something must be done. As it stands, it's clear that somebody being more subtle about reloading would never get caught; say, once every few games and only for crucial turns. The best solution would be for the game to save whatever point it was at, but of course that would create all sorts of technical difficulties, not to mention it would be very tough on people trying to play MP who really do have bad connections. Even if Slitherine lowered the number of reloads to lead to suspension, and made suspension harder to get out of, it would only force people to be less obvious. For those with money, buying a new copy of the game and setting up a new account would be no problem. Seems like a lot of trouble, but then again so is reloading hundreds of times.

I'd had my suspicions about dkalenda in the past, but always chalked it up to my subconscious being a poor loser. It was also harder to detect, I think, because dkalenda is a genuinely good player, Division B at least and quite possibly a Division A player even without his... erm... enhanced abilities.

On a lighter note, I had this in retrospect pretty funny exchange with dkalenda during our Classical Antiquity match this season:

SnuggleBunnies: Enjoy slaughtering me again!
dkalenda: It's Div A any match is balanced!
SnuggleBunnies: Not when you're involved
SnugglBunnies: NOOOOO WHY U RALLY

Hahahaha... oh man.

I have seen this type of behaviour before in competitive card games like Magic the Gathering. The players who end up cheating the most are often among the better players who feel that they can't let RNG cheat them of a win against a "lesser" opponent. I am sure we all have had a game or two against a player we know to be inferior, watched them make obvious mistakes, only for RNG to prop them up and let them take the game and then feel some degree of "salt" over it.

Maybe it is because I have played so much poker and lost so much money in pots in the past that I am now generally immune to it especially when no money is involved but to see 225 reloads in a game when the best possible outcome was a 10 dollar voucher. Holy ***

[ulysisgrunt]

The only real cheat I knew was when we played DBM miniatures at conventions...
Paul Michael Serio often cheated with loaded dice. His fate? He turned out to be a professional 'hitman' and dies in a Florida prison for murdering a woman and child.
Needless to say, when i told my wife she responded ;"YOU LET THAT MAN IN OUR HOUSE!!!!

[Robotron]

Well, Slitherene are not EA or Steam, so expecting them to have the means to provide foolproof systems to detect cheaters or even pay dedicated personnel to do this job is quite unrealistic to begin with. Nonetheless, this is a rather tragic issue to say the least.

[melm]

Maybe also something to have a look at in the programming. I play Chaos Reborn which is also turn-based. While playing multiplayer occasionally you get a disconnection. But, even then, you just go back in and the game has saved everything up to the point when you crashed. You don't start the turn afresh.

This is a good idea. But I have concerns
1) What if the PC crashed. I doubt the any save could be made just before the crash, and such crash could be due to power failure or purposeful shut-down by the player.
If the game can only load the processing save once, then sadly the game can't continue.
2) If the PC is not crashed, and the save can be made. I think the only location it can be saved is the player's PC, which offers the opportunity to modify the local saved file. The cheating risk is still there as long as the dev has a advanced way to encrypt the file to prevent any possible modification.