The Dustbin

[melm]

The only real cheat I knew was when we played DBM miniatures at conventions...
Paul Michael Serio often cheated with loaded dice. His fate? He turned out to be a professional 'hitman' and dies in a Florida prison for murdering a woman and child.
Needless to say, when i told my wife she responded ;"YOU LET THAT MAN IN OUR HOUSE!!!!

Your wife's response sounds soooo real.

[DanZanzibar]

Plainly put, there are 3 significant consequences of this debacle.

1. You can cheat.
2. You can get away with doing it repeatedly.
3. Everyone is going to be more suspicious of the unlikely events which in the normal course of this game occur very often anyway.

I saw a post when I started playing not that long ago where RBS assured someone that (paraphrased) they don’t need to worry - Slitherine monitors this sort of thing and cheaters will be caught. I’m not putting this on Richard as I understand he is not with Slitherine but clearly assurances were made to him and subsequently everyone else. If those reassurances were and are in the future taking care of, then then no one needs to consider cheating or suspect their opponent of it. At this time, we can’t say that’s the case.

I know others have already said what I’m saying but it will be important that we all lobby Slitherine to look after this. If they get an email from 80 of us I would like to think it would be taken seriously.

[DanZanzibar]

Once we have the appropriate contact perhaps someone can post a form email to the forum with the email we can all copy and paste.

[SimonLancaster]

Maybe also something to have a look at in the programming. I play Chaos Reborn which is also turn-based. While playing multiplayer occasionally you get a disconnection. But, even then, you just go back in and the game has saved everything up to the point when you crashed. You don't start the turn afresh.

This is a good idea. But I have concerns
1) What if the PC crashed. I doubt the any save could be made just before the crash, and such crash could be due to power failure or purposeful shut-down by the player.
If the game can only load the processing save once, then sadly the game can't continue.
2) If the PC is not crashed, and the save can be made. I think the only location it can be saved is the player's PC, which offers the opportunity to modify the local saved file. The cheating risk is still there as long as the dev has a advanced way to encrypt the file to prevent any possible modification.

It all happens automatically. Any kind of crash and the game would be saved up until the last movement.

You have to finish the turn to get out of the game. No chance to modify with no crash.

I will have a chat with one of the devs from Chaos Reborn and see if any suggestions or insight can be added.

[melm]

Maybe also something to have a look at in the programming. I play Chaos Reborn which is also turn-based. While playing multiplayer occasionally you get a disconnection. But, even then, you just go back in and the game has saved everything up to the point when you crashed. You don't start the turn afresh.

This is a good idea. But I have concerns
1) What if the PC crashed. I doubt the any save could be made just before the crash, and such crash could be due to power failure or purposeful shut-down by the player.
If the game can only load the processing save once, then sadly the game can't continue.
2) If the PC is not crashed, and the save can be made. I think the only location it can be saved is the player's PC, which offers the opportunity to modify the local saved file. The cheating risk is still there as long as the dev has a advanced way to encrypt the file to prevent any possible modification.

It all happens automatically. Any kind of crash and the game would be saved up until the last movement.

You have to finish the turn to get out of the game. No chance to modify with no crash.

I will have a chat with one of the devs from Chaos Reborn and see if any suggestions or insight can be added.

Ah, if the save is dynamically generated from move to move, then it's much safer. My point 1 could be refuted. I'd be very interested to know Chaos Reborn's professional view.

[Geffalrus]

Oh. My. God. FOG2 has it's own juicing scandal now. I'm completely astounded.

I only played the guy a grand total of two times (both losses), so I don't have much to add. He certainly had a decent amount of natural skill when it came to battle strategy. And as we all know, all it takes is a little bad luck to tilt the game in your opponent's favor. Probably makes that sort of cheating even more effective and enticing at the higher skill level. A skilled player knows what the crucial tipping points will be in the battle, at least more so than players still learning the ropes. Most unnerving.

Thank you Pete for taking such decisive action. A scandal like this could easily exacerbate the ever present frustration people have with RNG in this game. People need to be able to trust the integrity of the DL.

[Geffalrus]

Also, just want to say hi to everyone. I miss the fun and excitement of the tournament. Don't miss the stress, though. Maybe once the plague clears up here in America.......and once the political unrest clears up........I'll be back with my favorite Antigonid Army to romp around the Classical Antiquity division. Hope everyone's having good fun and producing good AAR's!

[Macedonczyk]

Division B

Macedonczyk (Assyrian+Egyptian) beat Paulmcneil (Skythian) 54:29

A difficult game, fortunately the archers are effective against horses.

[Questar17]

Division B

Questar17 - Ptolemaic 166-56 BC beat nyczar - Spartan 221-146 BC with Roman 280-220 BC allies 43:14

Nice game,
a good ambush done by nyczar created to me some problems in the battlefield making to switch asap some reserve from the center to one of the flanks...

thx for the game

[rbodleyscott]

The way I have understood Slitherine's PBEM system, I have always known that it would be possible to save scum with little to no retaliation as long as one was judicial about using it (a key point of attack etc, etc) since an automated system must be programmed in with a fair degree of offsets to prevent a flood of false positives. But to find out that a match was reloaded 99 and 225 times. It begs the question of what if any automated safeguards are in place? And if there an automated safeguard system which spits out a report, how often does Sliterthine staff check it? Quite honestly it is absurd.

I guess I have been fortunate enough to not have played with many cheaters as there have only been a few instances where I raised my eyebrows where successful rolls were going exactly where they needed to be.

To be fair the automated system did pick up the issue, during the games in question, and Slitherine did suspend him, but they decided to reinstate him giving him the benefit of the doubt on the basis of his stated explanation.

I will draw this thread to the attention of the movers and shakers at Slitherine.

[stockwellpete]

To be fair the automated system did pick up the issue, during the games in question, and Slitherine did suspend him, but they decided to reinstate him giving him the benefit of the doubt on the basis of his stated explanation.

I will draw this thread to the attention of the movers and shakers at Slitherine.

Thanks Richard. I have just sent my own PM to Iain McNeil as well.

[stockwellpete]

texanotedesco has been in contact this morning and has 6 games in progress. So he will be continuing until the end of the tournament.

[stockwellpete]

I was wondering if this was possible. It happened to me in a non-league game, when my dog literally restarted my computer during a thunderstorm. Pete, what is the proper protocol when this kind of thing (forced restart) legitimately occurs in a league game? Perhaps a good solution if just for Slitherine to implement a system where your opponent is informed of the number of re-starts in a match (perhaps even at the end of a game)?

What I do is report it to the technical forum so everything is open and above board. It has happened to me a couple of times . . .

viewtopic.php?f=488&t=79677&p=679707#p679712
viewtopic.php?f=488&t=90315&p=769195#p769195

[stockwellpete]

Is he banned by the forum as well? It would be interesting to see him comment on this, just out of curiosity.

Not at the moment, as far as I know. The PM I sent to him explaining what we had decided was picked up within an hour of it being sent early yesterday evening.

[CONSTANTINIX]

Thanks to all the competitors. All the games were enjoyable. In this division, imo, there is few differences between the first and the last. Every match has to be played with full focus. Special thanks to stockwellpete who makes that possible.

[SimonLancaster]

Is he banned by the forum as well? It would be interesting to see him comment on this, just out of curiosity.

Not at the moment, as far as I know. The PM I sent to him explaining what we had decided was picked up within an hour of it being sent early yesterday evening.

Yes, Schweetness! We can get some cameras and do a Skype interview, too. Put the scandal on YouTube!

[paulmcneil]

I guess I have been fortunate enough to not have played with many cheaters as there have only been a few instances where I raised my eyebrows where successful rolls were going exactly where they needed to be.

I think THAT is the point, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't see you playing in the DL very often, and I'm guessing that people who are serious about cheating would tend to do it in the games where there is "a prize" albeit bragging rights, at stake, i.e. in league and tournament matches, not necessarily in "friendly" matches, so the apparent lopsidedness of the RNG that some of us noticed but others didn't may be an artefact of the number of dl and tournament games played by the players, where professional cheats would be more likely to have practiced their trade?

[MikeMarchant]

I have to say that over this and past season I have played games that could fit this pattern of behaviour. Games that have rattled along at a decent pace and then when I have worked a significant advantage my opponent doesn't respond for some days and then when that reponse does occur my opponent has enjoyed outrageous luck. In one such game I had a 20 point lead and when my opponent's turn came back I had a 10 point deficit. I lost that game.

My objections to the outragoeus RNG in this game, I only now realise, seem largely to be rooted in the luck enjoyed by opponents in their turn, although that isn't exclusively the case. If this save-scummng business really is the cause of these apparent RNG anomolies, then I apologise to RBS and others for takin issue with them over the RNG question.


Best Wishes

Mike

[Questar17]

Well done mate. Impressed of your pragmatic style of play!

[paulmcneil]

I have to say that over this and past season I have played games that could fit this pattern of behaviour. Games that have rattled along at a decent pace and then when I have worked a significant advantage my opponent doesn't respond for some days and then when that reponse does occur my opponent has enjoyed outrageous luck. In one such game I had a 20 point lead and when my opponent's turn came back I had a 10 point deficit. I lost that game.

My objections to the outragoeus RNG in this game, I only now realise, seem largely to be rooted in the luck enjoyed by opponents in their turn, although that isn't exclusively the case. If this save-scummng business really is the cause of these apparent RNG anomolies, then I apologise to RBS and others for takin issue with them over the RNG question.


Best Wishes

Mike

But (just to deliberately stir up another massive argument) in that case, what we were saying was correct, the RNG was working massively wrong, because it was being frigged, the theory obviously didn't fit the reality.