Tips from DL Divisional Winners on their Army List

[DanZanzibar]

I was hoping to start a tradition where divisional winners from the DL give a tip or two on the army they just won with. It may only be a sentence or two, although I can imagine some generous players who will write an essay.

I'll be pestering some of the winners from this season to see if they will contribute. If it takes off it could become a great archive for new and existing players to visit and learn from. Even the winners of lower divisions who may also be rather new (such as myself) will probably have advice that players of a similar level will find useful. I'll put a post in here based on my armies soon and I'm really hoping others will as well!

[DanZanzibar]

I'll start this off and hope some more experienced winner will feel like contributing as well. As a first timer to the DL, you can probably imagine my insights will be rather basic but still helpful to players who were where I was just a couple of months ago. I should note that the two armies below are widely recognized as great lists and taken almost every time in every division.


LA Div E - Arab City 300-633 AD with Sassanid 591-628 AD allies

The 36 point Pre-Islamic light spear/sword heavy foot is the staple unit in the army and you can deploy 16 of them at 1200 points iirc. Although you'll likely never be ahead in one-on-one matchups with them versus any other foot troops, they can often hold up much better troops for a significant time. With the cost alone, you can deploy more foot than a typical Roman army and still have points left over for cavalry, including some cheap lancers. It makes for an army well disposed to surrounding the enemy and setting up a lot of flanks... especially if you can stretch your opponent out a little with threatening cav.


EMA Div E - Dailami 928-1055 AD with Armenian 885-1045 AD allies

Superior and average impact foot... what's not to love?? They are medium foot though and this is at the crux of what I learned when playing them. You will be significantly worse at passing CT's than the heavy foot shieldwalls you're going to be fighting often. I found that it was important not to allow the whole battle line to engage at the same time. Instead I would have my superior foot often leading a charge (and supported by quite a few extra average dailami foot) at one point I wanted to target so that any disruptions and double drops I inflicted on impact could be taken advantage of quickly by locally superior numbers. If you're forced into a grindy fight along a long battle line, the fact that they are medium foot will show up fast as you take more disruptions from CT's than your opponent.


That's my 2 cents and I'm sure it's nothing mind blowing. You might even want to argue what I'm saying. Please feel free to do so!

[Nosy_Rat]

Why the Armenian allies, though?

[CONSTANTINIX]

Tips from Division A : Late antiquity - Army Byzantine 551-578 AD

I choose this army because there is a shining jewel inside : Four superiors noble lancers (offensive spearman). This is your winning card. As there is few counter in late antiquity, this will be your main attack force : you have to put them in front of the best enemy units (Roman legio, superior warbands, elephants) and they will win you the day. I used them for every match
Your others units will be good defensive units that will keep the rest of your batlle line stable :
-legio comitatensis will held your line and blow like a grenade due to the "darts effect" when the enemy will try to attack to force the way.
-byzantine lancers is a a "jack of all trades" : it can counter archers cavalry army as it can charge and shoot (you will probably need to reinforce it with the expert armoured horse archers) .It is relatively cheap with an above average moral ! As lancers, they can attack mediocre infantry or delay advancing enemy infantry

In some case , you can fill the rank with some limitanei for example again large spamming armies, but be aware they are brittle and should be put in good defensive position or again weak enemy troops. They can also be be sacrified to gain time as there are cheap

The weakness of the army:
- less light units than the other armies but you should use your byzantines lancers to support your own lights if possible and also recruit the two light javelinmen horses acting as light hunters.
The auxillia sagittatorium are useful to reinforce your missile power if you think you will be overmatched
- only two mediore medium infantry : unless there is a lot of rough terrain, I try to avoid them .

[Ludendorf]

Division A: Carthaginian Hannibal in Africa.

There's not much more I can say about them than I do in my videos, but the HiA list is one of the most well-balanced lists in the game. It has elephants, a large body of cost-effective cavalry, specialised heavy foot including two heavily armoured superior offensive spears of the kind ConstantinIX talks about above, and heavily armoured medium infantry who can decimate other mediums or form an all but impassable barrier to heavies on the rough, a swarm of seven squadrons of javelin cavalry that form perhaps the most cost-effective light horse swarm in the classical period, and an above average (if aggressive) force of light javelin skirmishers supplemented by a single squad of archers and the balearic slingers.

The army's real secret weapon, however, is the medium infantry. You have access to seven of the almost unique phoenician-style foot, a 33 point unmanoeuvrable medium foot unit which, crucially, is of average quality and protected armour status. At 33 points, these are the most cost effective fully protected average quality foot you are ever going to get, and amongst the cheapest and most cost effective line holders you can get until raw-quality defensive spears roll around in the Late Antiquity period. Unlike the raw troops, they're reasonably brave as well; match them to other average quality soldiers and keep them away from any impact foot, and these well-trained militiamen will generally hold the day for long enough for the rest of your army to get into flanking positions. They make excellent line fillers, because you actually have something there that you can to some degree rely on, and aren't just throwing out there in the vain hope that they might hold the enemy up long enough for you to win elsewhere first. The 42 point scutarii are also an excellent investment. At 42 points, this is as cheap as impact foot get without being raw. They are definitely a better choice than raw legionaries, and if you can keep them away from their arch-enemies, the thureophoroi, or any Superior quality heavy units who are hunting around in the open, they can be an excellent discount shock troop, especially against regular light spear infantry like the Italian Foot.

There is a small body of Italian Foot, who give some much needed flexibility to the flanks of the army that the phoenicians don't, and the aforementioned unit of Veteran Italian Foot, who can cut apart just about any other kind of medium as long as they don't run into superior impact foot who get the better of them in the open. I personally favour a weak centre approach, with the phoenicians in the centre, and the more dangerous units and cavalry on the flanks in a long line that envelops both flanks of my opponent's usually more expensive army. The flanks approach first, paralysing the enemy army with a flank threat, and then the centre and flanks move together to suffocate the foe and break them down before they really have a chance to respond. The opponent refusing their flanks makes this more difficult, but most of the time, and with enough caution used during manoeuvring, the Carthaginians can find an opening.

[DanZanzibar]

Thanks for chiming in guys! I was worried no one would post and it would just be me - a first timer to the DL - giving out advice like I knew something.

Why the Armenian allies, though?

It was a snap decision that I wouldn't defend as ideal... I'm pretty sure what motivated me to do that was the small bump to light archers and the additional of some anti-cavalry help in the form of the skoutatoi (raw and average) and the off. spear. I hadn't felt very comfortable going into the season using cavalry and having some foot to help deal with it in a mixed formation was a comfort thing for me. Do you usually use other allies or none?

[rs2excelsior]

Tips from Division A : Late antiquity - Army Byzantine 551-578 AD

I choose this army because there is a shining jewel inside : Four superiors noble lancers (offensive spearman). This is your winning card. As there is few counter in late antiquity, this will be your main attack force : you have to put them in front of the best enemy units (Roman legio, superior warbands, elephants) and they will win you the day. I used them for every match

I'm just wrapping up my second season with this list, and I wish I'd seen this mentioned earlier, haha! I've never made much use of the dismounted noble lancers in that list - mostly because of the cost, I figured that since they couldn't rely on the rest of the Byzantine infantry to support their attack they'd be vulnerable if they went on the offensive, and I made my main striking arm the lancers instead. Which works great when it works, and fails hard when it doesn't. Still, I've had some success leaving my infantry as a solid base and letting the lancers go wild. When it's worked best, the lancers have been able to win their flank, and loop around to deal with the enemy tied up on my legio comitatensis/limitanei. Which, like I said, I've had mixed success with. If I run this list again (I might, since I quite like it) I'll give the dismounted lancers more of a chance!

[kronenblatt]

Very interesting read: thanks guys! Keep it coming!

[Swuul]

Early Medieval, Division D
British 600-1030 AD with Viking 790-899 allies

You can deploy massive amounts of troops with this list (Defensive Spearmen, Offensive Spearmen, Brythonic Foot, Raw Defensive Spearmen; a 1600 point army can have some 40 units of these and still leave enough points for the crack troops), supported by a small but crack core of Huscarls, Berserkers and Noble cavalry. It works like smooth butter against players who prefer passive defense; with the exception of Brythonic Foot all troops are Unmanouverable, so against an active opponent things can get problematic (it takes time to get all the unmanouverable troops into position with this army).

Reading Rommel's "Infanterie greift an" is a must before using this army In the book Rommel time and again advised for your slower troops in center to tie down the enemy, whither their morale with machine-gun fire, break through the gaps with small mobile troops, and force the enemy to surrender or rout with flank attacks. Think of your spearmen as the dudes who tie down the enemy, the archers as your machine guns who attempt to Disrupt the opposing line, and your Brythonic foot and Noble cavalry as your mobile flankers

The key is to tie down the opponent center with the intimidating mass of cheap spearmen. Ideally the opponent feels they are unable to move to the flanks, or they will be overrun by the mass of spearmen. On the flanks control opposing cavalry with Raw Shieldwalls and your light horses (and if needed, use the Noble Cavalry here too, although you'd really want them to be free to break through to the flanks of the center). All this while you look for the gaps in the opponent lines (or at the ends of opponent line) for your Brythonic infantry to flood through.

This army is IMO one of the very few where you do *not* want your generals initially to be in combat, but to provide bonus to Cohesion Tests (you will take *a lot* of Cohesion Tests with this army, believe me). Ideally the crack troops (with the generals) should engage the enemy only when the flankers are in position, targeting the Disrupted (by your archers) enemy units. When things go as planned, the enemy morale can go from 0% to 40% in just a couple battlerounds (panic spreads, cavalry and Berserkers pursuit and charge new enemies in flanks, the Superior and Elite infantry charge in frontally with your other spearmen targeting wavering opponents).

If you are on a map which does not suit cavalry very well, you can (and should) dismount your Mounted Huscarls at start, and leave the Noble Cavalry home. You will then have five infantry units who are at least of Superior quality, and even if you leave one on each flank as anchor units, you can have a spearhead (sic!) of three Superior Offensive Spearmen in center (or alternatively, on either flank).

As mentioned, the army is weak against an active opponent. If your opponent presses hard on one flank before you can bring your mass of unmanouverable troops to action, you might lose the battle before you have the chance to break through. If your opponent has access to plenty quality cavalry, bring in more Raw Shieldwalls (they are *excellent* vs cavalry (just remember to have their general nearby to provide the bonus to CT for the impact round (they easily lose the impact round, but from second round and on their huge numbers take care of cavalry, even if they would have been Disrupted in the impact round)), though the suck vs infantry) to your flanks, and hope your flanks hold long enough for you to eventually punch through somewhere.

[rbodleyscott]

This army is IMO one of the very few where you do *not* want your generals initially to be in combat, but to provide bonus to Cohesion Tests (you will take *a lot* of Cohesion Tests with this army, believe me).

Generals only provide a bonus to Cohesion Tests when they are in close combat. (Leading by example)

[Swuul]

This army is IMO one of the very few where you do *not* want your generals initially to be in combat, but to provide bonus to Cohesion Tests (you will take *a lot* of Cohesion Tests with this army, believe me).

Generals only provide a bonus to Cohesion Tests when they are in close combat. (Leading by example)

They do? Wow, no wonder I sometimes got worse CT results across the whole line than I expected Live and learn...

[Nosy_Rat]

Thanks for chiming in guys! I was worried no one would post and it would just be me - a first timer to the DL - giving out advice like I knew something.

Why the Armenian allies, though?

It was a snap decision that I wouldn't defend as ideal... I'm pretty sure what motivated me to do that was the small bump to light archers and the additional of some anti-cavalry help in the form of the skoutatoi (raw and average) and the off. spear. I hadn't felt very comfortable going into the season using cavalry and having some foot to help deal with it in a mixed formation was a comfort thing for me. Do you usually use other allies or none?

Makes sense, thanks. I'd probably pick an earlier Arab list as allies as it gives you a lot of cheap lancers as another way to counter cavalry and doesn't reduce the maximum number of veterans you can field.

[DanZanzibar]

Thanks for chiming in guys! I was worried no one would post and it would just be me - a first timer to the DL - giving out advice like I knew something.

Why the Armenian allies, though?

It was a snap decision that I wouldn't defend as ideal... I'm pretty sure what motivated me to do that was the small bump to light archers and the additional of some anti-cavalry help in the form of the skoutatoi (raw and average) and the off. spear. I hadn't felt very comfortable going into the season using cavalry and having some foot to help deal with it in a mixed formation was a comfort thing for me. Do you usually use other allies or none?

Makes sense, thanks. I'd probably pick an earlier Arab list as allies as it gives you a lot of cheap lancers as another way to counter cavalry and doesn't reduce the maximum number of veterans you can field.

If I were to do it over, that’s probably the decision I would make. I’d never even used the Dailami before the league matches so it wasn’t the most informed decision... but I’m glad to hear you think it was a logical decision.

Now I’m looking forward to your EMA advice!

[SnuggleBunnies]

Right now, I'd say the two most cost effective units in the game are 33pt Phoenician Foot and 36pt Bedouin Lancers.

[SimonLancaster]

Right now, I'd say the two most cost effective units in the game are 33pt Phoenician Foot and 36pt Bedouin Lancers.

I was going to say you that aren't a divisional winner so no comments allowed.. but Biblical an outside chance for Bunny!

[pompeytheflatulent]

Right now, I'd say the two most cost effective units in the game are 33pt Phoenician Foot and 36pt Bedouin Lancers.

Is being un-maneuverable and chasing routing units really worth the 3 points saved over Italian foot?

[SnuggleBunnies]

Right now, I'd say the two most cost effective units in the game are 33pt Phoenician Foot and 36pt Bedouin Lancers.

Is being un-maneuverable and chasing routing units really worth the 3 points saved over Italian foot?

Chasing routing units is often a good thing; it can lead to additional flank attacks, or charging into contact before having to endure more arrow fire. Especially for the center of the line where maneuver isn't quite as vital, I'd say yes.

[MikeC_81]

Right now, I'd say the two most cost effective units in the game are 33pt Phoenician Foot and 36pt Bedouin Lancers.

Is being un-maneuverable and chasing routing units really worth the 3 points saved over Italian foot?

What you have to realize is that all units outside general range are by default un-maneuverable already. So every MF unit not in range of a general is paying a 3 point tax for no reason. LS/S units with 100/100 are typically garbage units who's job is to hold the line or ZoC out key squares to protect flanks. It is much more useful to have devastating units like Zealots or Legionaries have maneuverable traits since it greatly helps them in matchup hunting and or delivering all but assured combat wins in auto drop situations when you flank a unit. This is not to say that there are not times when being maneuverable with Italian foot vs Phoencician foot can't pay off in spades but those situations are hard to come by and even less so for players who dress their lines properly by refusing flanks or setup overlapping ZoC coverage.

[baldrick52]

Hello All here is my 'Tips for winners' -baldrick52 has won Biblical Division C!-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvYrmHTn0SM

Best
Richard Yorke'

[kronenblatt]

Hello All here is my 'Tips for winners' -baldrick52 has won Biblical Division C!-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvYrmHTn0SM

Best
Richard Yorke'

Thanks for video, Richard: really good! Could you elaborate here on your use of Heavy Chariots: why you like them and how you deploy and apply them? And didn't quite get your reasoning about Bow versus Light spear for Heavy Chariots: pros and cons? (Reason for asking is that I genuinely suck at applying Heavy Chariots...)