The Dustbin

[stockwellpete]

*Shrug* okay. Well getting back to the topic at hand, I think this is a reasonable response from Slitherine. While I personally would prefer to see reloads logged every turn, I can see the arguments against it. I'm also glad to have my feeling that cheating was extremely rare seem to be confirmed by Slitherine. Hopefully, it will now become vanishingly rare, and we can all get back to enjoying raging at actual bad luck.

Yes, inevitably dkalenda's behaviour has overshadowed what has been another really exciting season. It would be good though if we could concentrate on some of the positives during the last week of the tournament. We have seen a very impressive return to the tournament of Ludendorf after a long break to become the champion of Classical Antiquity; pantherboy has also returned and seems to be returning to his best form once more. Nosy_Rat has put in a series of excellent peformances with less-fancied armies to win two championships (Early Middle Ages and Biblical) and a runners-up spot (Classical Antiquity) to become our new "top player". ConstantinIX and Macedonczyk have continued their seemingly inexorable rise up the divisions and ConstantinIX has won the Late Antiquity championship at the first time of asking. harveylh has been rewarded for his consistent performances at the top level with a win in the Themed Event. And then we have a whole host of new players joining the tournament (Including some excellent reserves) for the first time and really getting into the swing of things very quickly. DanZanzibar has produced a great set of results to win three promotions and it will be interesting to see how he performs at a higher level next season. There were also very good performances from BishUK, random27, kraff, Stew101 and Aetius39. So there is a lot to celebrate and all these players are "clean".

[stockwellpete]

I have updated the title of this thread to reflect where we are now in this episode.

[edb1815]

There will be warnings before a sanction. I'm not willing to discuss the details of this as it could be used to try and manipulate things. The aim is to find a balance between preventing cheating and false positives. We agree it was too far one way, we just want to be careful we don't go too far the other. The system will involve black marks being allocated, which will fade over time, but we wont be discussing details of either aspect.

And there we have it.

I hoped the zero tolerance policy towards cheats was now established.

Apparently not.

I disagree. There is still zero tolerance towards a cheater.

Having said that zero tolerance policies in society do not often work as intended and are often have disastrous, if untended consequences. But let's look at this from a criminal law perspective. The accused in most countries is presumed innocent unless the charges are proved against them. If you apply that to the system here, which as Iain noted, applies across multiple games, they need to ensure sufficient evidence of actual cheating before perma-banning someone. So an automated system needs to have a safeguard against conviction of an innocent player. Once guilt is established your cheater is expelled. So you can still say there is zero tolerance because all cheaters once proven guilty are banned.

I do hope you will continue to play I always enjoy our games.

[edb1815]

We will make an announcement once everything is finalised but it will be about general systems and not details. Partly as these could help people to game the system and partly as they are going to be subject to change without notice. The issue is as we're reviewing different games there are different patterns of behaviour. For example, in a game that last 200 turns you need more tolerance for missing uploads than one that lasts 10-20. So we're still working out the exact mechanics as we have to take the entire system in to account.

Thank you Iain.

I hope that the players who want to have all the details and "transparency" will understand and accept your reasoning. Personally I don't have enough gaming time to be spending it analyzing reports from the system on an opponents moves. This is a game not a job. It is also clear that at least one vocal member of this forum, who wants to see all the data, has taken the time to determine how one could game the system and reported his findings. Frankly I think that supports your reasoning for not being specific about the details of the anti-cheat system.

[snooky51]

Division E

snooky51 - Ghaznavid 962-1187 AD defeats Tratmot - Andalusian 756-1049 AD with Spanish 718-899 AD allies -- 61-50

After an indecisive skirmish, both armies collided. Ghaznavid center held against veteran arab spears long enough to collapse the Andalusian flanks.

(3-1)

[texanotedesco]

Division E

texanotedesco (khorasanian) wins vs snooky51 (Ghaznavid 962-1187) 63% to 54%

(3-1)

[texanotedesco]

Division E

texanotedesco (Khorasanian) wins vs Barrold713 (German with allies French 888-1049) 65% to 46%

[NikiforosFokas]

I do hope you will continue to play I always enjoy our games.

+1

[MikeMarchant]

There will be warnings before a sanction. I'm not willing to discuss the details of this as it could be used to try and manipulate things. The aim is to find a balance between preventing cheating and false positives. We agree it was too far one way, we just want to be careful we don't go too far the other. The system will involve black marks being allocated, which will fade over time, but we wont be discussing details of either aspect.

And there we have it.

I hoped the zero tolerance policy towards cheats was now established.

Apparently not.

I disagree. There is still zero tolerance towards a cheater.

Having said that zero tolerance policies in society do not often work as intended and are often have disastrous, if untended consequences. But let's look at this from a criminal law perspective. The accused in most countries is presumed innocent unless the charges are proved against them. If you apply that to the system here, which as Iain noted, applies across multiple games, they need to ensure sufficient evidence of actual cheating before perma-banning someone. So an automated system needs to have a safeguard against conviction of an innocent player. Once guilt is established your cheater is expelled. So you can still say there is zero tolerance because all cheaters once proven guilty are banned.

I do hope you will continue to play I always enjoy our games.

Well said; couldn't agree more.


Best Wishes

Mike

[paulmcneil]

Division B

paulmcneil (Polish) beat GDod (Norman) 40:15

[stockwellpete]

Classical Antiquity A-D Tables.jpg (990.67 KiB) Viewed 1567 times

Classical Antiquity E-F Tables.jpg (575.04 KiB) Viewed 1567 times

[stockwellpete]

Weekly round-up
There was an eighth win for Nosy_Rat (Indian) in Division A this week and he has finished just 2 points behind the champion Ludendorf (Hannibal in Africa). In Division B a seventh win for XLegione (Roman) means he needs 2 points from his last match against Questar17 (Ptolemaic) to win automatic promotion from Division B. ulysisgrunt (Lysimachid) is relegated after losing to GDod (Seleucid). And in Division D a defeat for ggarynorman (Indo-Greek) in his last match against Bluefin (Syracusan) sees him relegated after finishing level on points with Rob123 (Hannibal in Africa). Rob123 won their match together this season. Divisions C, E and F were completed last week.

Unbeaten runs of 3 matches or more
Nosy_Rat (Division A) 3 and finished
XLegione (Division B) 8 matches

Match completion rate (45 matches in total to be played in each division)
Division A - 45 out of 45 matches completed
Division B - 42 out of 45 matches completed
Division C - 45 out of 45 matches completed
Division D - 45 out of 45 matches completed
Division E - 45 out of 45 matches completed
Division F - 45 out of 45 matches completed

These are excellent match completion rates.

Player of the week
GDod (Division B) with 2 wins to avoid finishing in the automatic relegation position.

[stockwellpete]

It is also clear that at least one vocal member of this forum, who wants to see all the data, has taken the time to determine how one could game the system and reported his findings. Frankly I think that supports your reasoning for not being specific about the details of the anti-cheat system.

Reported to who? Hopefully, it was intended as a helpful gesture and was reported to Slitherine.

[stockwellpete]

Late Antiquity A-D Tables.jpg (939.17 KiB) Viewed 1588 times

Late Antiquity E-F Tables.jpg (541.94 KiB) Viewed 1588 times

[stockwellpete]

Weekly round-up
A fifth win of the season for Nosy_Rat (Western Huns) means that he will finish in 3rd place in Division A. In Division B desertedfox (Germanic Foot Tribes) won his last match so cromlechi (Roman) is relegated. IMC (Ancient British) is automatically promoted from Division C after phoyle3290 (Western Huns) lost to GDod (Byzantine) in a crucial match. GDod finished second and phoyle3290 third. At the bottom a narrow defeat for Bluefin (Scots-Irish) against batesmotel (Bosporan) gave him the point he needed to move above Swuul (Germanic Horse Tribes) who is relegated. Nothing much to report from the other divisions this week which are mostly finished apart from the minor placings.

Unbeaten runs of 3 matches or more
Najanaja (Division B) 3 matches and finished
GDod (Division C) 3 matches and finished
General Shapur (Division D) 4 matches and finished
Morat (Division F) 4 matches and finished

Match completion rate (45 matches in total to be played in each division)
Division A - 44 out of 45 matches completed
Division B - 43 out of 45 matches completed
Division C - 45 out of 45 matches completed
Division D - 45 out of 45 matches completed
Division E - 42 out of 45 matches completed
Division F - 45 out of 45 matches completed

These are good match completion rates.

Player of the Week: GDod (Division C) with 2 wins this week to finish as runner-up.

[stockwellpete]

Late Antiquity A-B Charts.jpg (810.69 KiB) Viewed 1419 times

Late Antiquity C-D Charts.jpg (818.33 KiB) Viewed 1419 times

Late Antiquity E-F charts.jpg (775.94 KiB) Viewed 1419 times

[stockwellpete]

In a very closely fought division, IMC and his Ancient British army held off very strong challenges from both GDod and phoyle3290 to win automatic promotion. Well played IMC.

[stockwellpete]

Early Middle Ages A-D Tables.jpg (887.53 KiB) Viewed 1679 times

Early Middle Ages E-F Tables.jpg (489.81 KiB) Viewed 1679 times

[stockwellpete]

Weekly round-up
Division A was completed this week with champion Nosy_Rat (Frankish) finishing unbeaten after defeating third-placed pompeytheflatulent (German). There was another win each for ConstantinIX (Arab Conquest) and Macedonczyk (Byzantine) in Division B where the outcome of their match together will decide who gets the automatic promotion place. In Division C Questar17 (Norman) has moved into second place and just needs a draw against third-placed sunnyboy (Scots) in the last match to secure his position. The relegation battle in Division D is a three-way contest between baldrick52 (Indian), Bluefin (French) and garynorman (Byzantine). What makes it particularly interesting is that they all still have to complete matches against each other! In Division E there were 2 wins for texanotedesco (Khorasanian) to see him finish safely in mid-table. At the bottom Stormcrow (Viking) must win his last match against ninth-placed Supervark (Rus) to have any chance of avoiding the drop. In Division F Nikobeg (Viking Ireland) finished with a big win to tie with random27 (German) in second place.

Unbeaten runs of 3 matches or more
Nosy_Rat (Division A) 9 matches and finished
ConstantinIX (Division B) 8 matches
Macedonczyk (Division B) 7 matches
sunnyboy (Division C) 5 matches

Match completion rate (45 matches in total to be played in each division)
Division A - 45 out of 45 matches completed
Division B - 43 out of 45 matches completed
Division C - 44 out of 45 matches completed
Division D - 42 out of 45 matches completed
Division E - 43 out of 45 matches completed
Division F - 45 out of 45 matches completed

These are very good match completion rates.

Player of the Week: texanotedesco (Division E) with 2 wins this week.

[MikeMarchant]

Well done, Ian, a pleasure to play (and lose) against you.


Best wishes

Mike