Re: War Wagons

[Veles]

To ease your wait I can already reveal that I have good arguments for some units of Pomeranian Spearmen: Average, Protected Offensive/Deffensive Spearmen with Deep Spear POA.
More interesting things down the line.

Fascinating. I've never researched the Pomeranians very much, so this will be quite the learning experience.

At the moment I'm working on how to suggest Hussite War Wagons be implemented in game.

Oh, yeah. The right implementation of wagenburgs (wagon-forts) will be very important for not only the Hussite army list but also Poland and Teutonic Order (and for Hungary as they famously employed remaining Taborites as mercenaries) and will also be needed for Pike&Shot 2.

In theory, wagons are already implemented as a variant of filed fortifications in defensive battles but that doesn't exactly cut it, does it? Especially seeing how Zizka and his successors also used war wagons offensively. Not mentioning battles from Thirteen Years War when both sides were often forming wagon-forts.

[Geffalrus]

Yeah, I was kind of thinking of the wagenburg as a cross between the elephant and phalanx (from FoG2) in terms of mechanics. It would move like the elephant and have a powerful impact POA, but no melee POA other than armor. The idea is that this would represent the mobile wagon as used by Jan Zizka at the Battle of Kutna Hora (1421). While the wagenburg was mostly used defensively, there were a few situations where it could be used offensively. At that battle, Zizka formed his wagons into a mobile column and physically broke through a portion of Sigismund's line. The wagons were used as a battering ram full of handgunners, fully supported by the Hussite infantry. The unit stats as I'm envisioning would allow this unit to be used in this fashion against a weak enemy line. However, if the wagenburg unit was flanked or engaged with multiple units (aka not properly supported), its lack of melee POA and reliance on armor would ensure that it could be easily pulled down. Mobility was the weakpoint of the wagenburg prior to the implementation of improved artillery (culverins) later in the century. The strong impact POA gives the player a reason to use it even though the unit becomes more vulnerable.......and also pushes their opponent towards clever feint tactics. All of which line up with the historical record.

Which leads us to the other mechanic of the wagenburg. Like artillery units in Pike and Shot, the wagenburg would have a limber/unlimber action button that would transform it from a mobile unit into a static unit. The deployed/fortified wagenburg unit would keep its high impact POA (purely defensive now) and gain a range 2 attack in its primary arc, as well as a ZOC. Additionally, the wagon would gain some POA against cavalry, but not infantry. This would cement the deployed unit's status as an excellent cavalry defense. Units at range would be dealt with by the cannons, massed handguns, and massed crossbows in the army list, while melee units attacking the wagon could be counter charged by Hussite flail infantry and small amounts of cavalry. The wagon would still be vulnerable to flanking and infantry when unsupported, particularly heavy weapon users. At the Battle of Aussig in 1426, Catholic forces advanced with axes and warhammers to literally break into the wagons. They were somewhat successful, and might have carried the battle had not the Hussites under Prokop the Great countered the assault with flank attacks. Still, these and other battles indicate that the wagons were strong vs. cavalry assault and normal ranged attacks, and only vulnerable to armor piercing infantry or cannon fire. At least when immobile. As previously stated, the main way that armies without those tools could defeat the wagenburg was by attacking when the wagons were mobile.

The final question then becomes how to price/POA the unit so that it's not too powerful, but also numerous enough work as an actual mobile field fortification.......

Edit: It should also go without saying that the wagon would be extremely allergic to rough terrain of almost any type. Rocks, marsh, forest, etc. It is a wagon after all. And it was at its best in open terrain acting as a counter to the cavalry that normally dominated those spaces.

[rbodleyscott]

The problem with any representation that allows War Wagons to charge is that players would use them that way all the time, whereas in fact they were only used like that on a couple of occasions and even the details of those are disputed.

And of course players would not use them in a column but in line abreast as that would be more effective.

I suppose they could be allowed to charge and have a high impact POA only if they have another war wagon directly behind them and no warwagons either side of them.

But I suspect that players would find a way to abuse that too.

It may be better to put that use of war wagons down as a "special stratagem" which was not used often enough to include in the vanilla rules. Their success on those occasions was probably down to surprise rather than a generally useful tactic. Especially if a scenario script could be used to make them exceptionally work like that in a Kutna Hora scenario.

[Veles]

Salve fratres!

Ok, so a new discussion about wagon forts has erupted in the thread about the Wendish army list. In order to avoid off-topic, I took the liberty and created this topic so we can continue this discussion here:

Yeah, I was kind of thinking of the wagenburg as a cross between the elephant and phalanx (from FoG2) in terms of mechanics. It would move like the elephant and have a powerful impact POA, but no melee POA other than armor. The idea is that this would represent the mobile wagon as used by Jan Zizka at the Battle of Kutna Hora (1421).

I'm not sure about this. I don't think the wagons should have any offensive impact POA, only the defensive one, and be treated as moving shooting platforms providing protection from cavalry to nearby units if steady. That way they would be way more useful and it would make it impossible to exploit or use in an unhistorical manner.
Otherwise, everyone would simply use them is thin lines.

Which leads us to the other mechanic of the wagenburg. Like artillery units in Pike and Shot, the wagenburg would have a limber/unlimber action button that would transform it from a mobile unit into a static unit. The deployed/fortified wagenburg unit would keep its high impact POA (purely defensive now) and gain a range 2 attack in its primary arc, as well as a ZOC. Additionally, the wagon would gain some POA against cavalry, but not infantry.

Hm... On a couple of occasions, Polish cavalry actually managed to literally break through wagon forts in a single charge and slaughter their defenders. Polish commanders of the time (XVI and XVII century) note that If wagon fort wasn't reinforced by earthworks it could become easy prey to a determined cavalry charge.

My take on this would be as such:
- when "unlimbered" wagons should have their defensive POA against cavalry halved
- no offensive impact POA
- infantry adjacent to war wagons counts as protected

The problem with any representation that allows War Wagons to charge is that players would use them that way all the time, whereas in fact they were only used like that on a couple of occasions and even the details of those are disputed.

Depends. War wagons were used as mobile fortifications/shooting platforms also by Poles, Cossacks, and Russians. Especially in the Late Middle Ages and later periods.
Russians used them together with Gulyay-gorods.
War wagons were also used to cover marching troops in hostile territory. In this case, they were put on the flanks, front and rear of the army to create moving obstacles manned by infantrymen armed with missile weapons. It could make for an interesting addition to ambush scenarios.

And of course players would not use them in a column but in line abreast as that would be more effective.

I suppose they could be allowed to charge and have a high impact POA only if they have another war wagon directly behind them and no warwagons either side of them.

But I suspect that players would find a way to abuse that too.

Maybe it would be a better idea to just make them a unit with shooting capability, defensive impact POA, and the ability to ignore enemies ZOCs? That would make them work similarly to how they were used in Kutna Hora, Cecora or Cudnow.

Their success on those occasions was probably down to surprise rather than a generally useful tactic.

I have to disagree. It was a useful enough tactic that it remained in occasional use to at least late XVII century

[Geffalrus]

Depends on how effective the wagon charge is. Elephant charges are one of the strongest in FoG2 due to POA values and the -1 to cohesion. But then their melee POA is much less impressive unless they're facing disrupted infantry or disordered cavalry. I don't think war wagons should have a charge quite as strong as that; high POA on impact maybe, but no -1 to cohesion (just the normal -1 that medium foot or warriors get when facing heavier units). So using them in mobile mode is a risk, especially if you don't have infantry units available to join into the melee, or if you haven't softened up the enemy with ranged attacks.

I think if the wagon had a point cost somewhere in the 60-80 range, and the option to bring quite a few of them, you could end up in a situation where the Hussite player has a relatively small army. Say something like the list has 4 +0/6 at a cost of 72 each. Either the Hussite player only brings the 4 guaranteed wagons and has a larger army, but not enough wagons for a proper wagenburg tactic, or they bring enough wagons for the tactic, but not a large army. The end result would be the Hussites facing a larger army.......as was the case for most of their battles.

The wagon also needs to have some mobility because other Zizka battles were won by slowly creeping the wagons closer to the enemy. Move a bit, deploy, shoot. Repeat. That would give three main options for the Hussite player when using the army. And the more the Hussites are incentivized to move, the more opportunities their opponent has to attack before the wagenburg is properly reformed. Definitely don't want the wagenburg to be solely a defensive fortification that never moves.

[Geffalrus]

Whoops, should have responded here. Excellent idea to shift the discussion on war wagons to another thread.

Regarding the Offensive Wagon: so the record describes Zizka as "breaking" the enemy line, but that of course is not terribly precise. The wagons are described as rolling forward firing their handguns as part of the assault. I interpreted that as similar to Impact Foot, where the short range javelin throw is an impact direct attack, rather than a ranged one. So the impact poa represents the firing of those handguns at close range. You could also interpret that from a ranged attack perspective too, I guess. Removing the attacking impact capability and keeping them as a pure ranged unit with defensive POA is not a bad idea necessarily. I can see some value in that approach.

As far as cavalry charges are concerned, part of the historical record involves the wagons fortifying on hills, which in the game adds POA. So they probably don't need massive POA values innate to the unit. The wagons weren't literally invincible, just awkward to attack, and formidable when properly supported. The support is where the rest of the Hussite list comes into play. But yeah, having the wagon have a stronger impact poa when deployed is an important mechanic for the unit. The player needs to choose between mobility and static defense.

Having infantry adjacent count as protected could be good, similar to how command shot are protected by nearby cavalry in P&S. Certainly that and the unit's innate ZOC would encourage a defensive line of wagons every other square with lanes for crossbows to shoot or flail infantry to countercharge.

And I obviously agree that the war wagon deserves some decent implementation in a FoGM dlc. The unit was used in basically every battle by the Hussites, and was the foundation of their army. If keeping them as a ranged unit with strong defensive POA keeps them from being too abused by players ahistorically, then that's fine by me if it helps get them in the game eventually.

[rbodleyscott]

Salve fratres!

Ok, so a new discussion about wagon forts has erupted in the thread about the Wendish army list. In order to avoid off-topic, I took the liberty and created this topic so we can continue this discussion here:

Thanks Veles, I was about to suggest that myself. I have moved the relevant posts into this thread.

[Geffalrus]

Thanks rbodley! Very helpful.

Veles - what are your thoughts on the prevalence and use of war wagons with light cannons instead of handgunners? I've seen a couple references to Zizka being the first to practice mobile artillery tactics during his later battles. From a gaming perspective, the Hussite army should definitely have access to at least one of whatever stationary cannon that factions get in the early 1400's, and that could be a long ranged unit that could encourage enemy players to assault the wagenburg or at least not sit idly on the other side of the map. But if the Hussite player wants to be a bit more mobile, and fully stationary cannon would be awkward. Perhaps then, a unit of wagon-borne cannon could act as a mobile "long" range unit. Or more accurately, it could be the first unit in the series to be of the limber/unlimber artillery variety. For balance, it would have a much shorter range than the stationary cannon. 6 squares perhaps?

[Veles]

Veles - what are your thoughts on the prevalence and use of war wagons with light cannons instead of handgunners?

Hm... why not both? It could work similarly to attached guns in Pike&Shot. It would be another variant of a war wagon: War Wagon + LG (Light Guns) which could add additional firepower and defensive impact POA. It would be a good representation of Fauconneau (Czech: tarasnice) that were used for direct fire from wagonfort.

From a gaming perspective, the Hussite army should definitely have access to at least one of whatever stationary cannon that factions get in the early 1400's

But if the Hussite player wants to be a bit more mobile, and fully stationary cannon would be awkward. Perhaps then, a unit of wagon-borne cannon could act as a mobile "long" range unit. Or more accurately, it could be the first unit in the series to be of the limber/unlimber artillery variety.

My proposition would be to include "Houfnice" in the Hussite and later Polish and Teutonic army lists. Houfnice were among the first mobile artillery types used in the Middle Ages introduced by Czechs.
That's how they look like (from the Museum of the Polish Army, an example from XV century):

In my opinion, it should work almost exactly like Light Guns from Pike&Shot. So no need for "liber/unlimber" action.

[rbodleyscott]

My proposition would be to include "Houfnice" in the Hussite and later Polish and Teutonic army lists. Houfnice were among the first mobile artillery types used in the Middle Ages introduced by Czechs.
That's how they look like (from the Museum of the Polish Army, an example from XV century):

In my opinion, it should work almost exactly like Light Guns from Pike&Shot. So no need for "liber/unlimber" action.

Agreed.

[Geffalrus]

Haha, yes, definitely both is what I meant. Should have worded that better. Having light gun mobile artillery in those select army lists makes sense.

[TheGrayMouser]

Veles - what are your thoughts on the prevalence and use of war wagons with light cannons instead of handgunners?

Hm... why not both? It could work similarly to attached guns in Pike&Shot. It would be another variant of a war wagon: War Wagon + LG (Light Guns) which could add additional firepower and defensive impact POA. It would be a good representation of Fauconneau (Czech: tarasnice) that were used for direct fire from wagonfort.

From a gaming perspective, the Hussite army should definitely have access to at least one of whatever stationary cannon that factions get in the early 1400's

But if the Hussite player wants to be a bit more mobile, and fully stationary cannon would be awkward. Perhaps then, a unit of wagon-borne cannon could act as a mobile "long" range unit. Or more accurately, it could be the first unit in the series to be of the limber/unlimber artillery variety.

My proposition would be to include "Houfnice" in the Hussite and later Polish and Teutonic army lists. Houfnice were among the first mobile artillery types used in the Middle Ages introduced by Czechs.
That's how they look like (from the Museum of the Polish Army, an example from XV century):

In my opinion, it should work almost exactly like Light Guns from Pike&Shot. So no need for "liber/unlimber" action.

That light gonne still likely weighs over 1000 lbs!! Btw, does the name translate to “falcon”?

[Veles]

That light gonne still likely weighs over 1000 lbs!! Btw, does the name translate to “falcon”?

No. Houfnica/Hufnica translates to "Battle's or "Battalion's" so a "canon that is attached to a unit larger than a single banner".

As for the weight, it varied greatly.

I couldn't find any specific data about weight but this article gives (page 8 ) offers some data about the overall dimensions of preserved exhibits. Here: http://rcin.org.pl/Content/58684/WA308_ ... race_I.pdf

[Paul59]

I've not really given this topic much thought yet, but I think that even though War Wagons must become "units" in order to move and have some sort of combat capability, they should still provide the fortification benefits (ie; defending obstacle POA bonus, negating certain enemy impact POA bonuses etc) for units that are positioned behind them, especially if they are being used defensively. So either they convert to a field fortification and a crew unit when deployed, or the fortification benefits are somehow incorporated into the unit's capabilities.

Also, I am not in favour of them having an offensive impact POA. I can't imagine them charging anyone. If Defensive Spearmen get no impact POA when charging, I can't see why a war wagon should.

[Geffalrus]

Also, I am not in favour of them having an offensive impact POA. I can't imagine them charging anyone. If Defensive Spearmen get no impact POA when charging, I can't see why a war wagon should.

I'll admit it does seem weird. My initial thinking was that the impact POA would represent a volley of handgun fire coming from the wagon as it approached the enemy line. Similar to how the impact of the Roman cohorts represent that initial pila throw. Zizka using the wagons to break through Sigismund's lines offensively refers to the handgun fire from the wagons.

However, Veles made a good argument for just keeping them as a ranged unit, so their offensive potential would be from them rolling near enemy units and shooting like a normal ranged unit.

As far as fortifications are concerned, I was thinking that the ZOC and high defensive impact of the wagon would protect things behind it. This would obviously be vulnerable to outflanking or mass assaults, which is why the Hussite player would need to plan against that using terrain or a proper defensive formation.