Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.4

[Uhu]

Quite my thoughs!
If a player would play without save-reload and without knowing, where and when the Allies attack (not to mention the cracking of Enigma!) than the endresults would be probably the same. So, the mod makes a really good job to simulate hitorical reality - as fas as possible within the border of the PzC system.
So the player can only achive victory if he is patient enough and invests a lot of time and energy to find the best solutions and learn the actions of the enemy. I play Be at least from v1.2. So, I have a lot of experience collected. Also I reload many times - not to have better fight results but to have the best choice as possible.

thank you, very interesting changes all of them especially the Kasserine pass ones since it was somewhat missing in version 2 it was difficult for me even to deploy some units there hence no battle occured.

I notice something about fuel reductions in each turn, maybe some more info about that.

Also, an important thing, the mod has to be offered in a such a state that newcomers have also a change to win. i feel that adding difficulties that may no occur easily.

For example a veteran player knows how to take moscow and how to take malta, hold Tunis etc so he will not face the might of the US air force, the Normandy landings etc

In other words he will not face the war on the two fronts effect, but the newby will do so the difficulty is much higher.

All in all the mod has to be attractive both to new and old players, I admit this might be a huge task to sustain though.

in any case Im very enthusiastic about the news of new version

Well, the Axis also just had one chance back then...

I am not sure you need to be able to win at the first attempt...

[tactical22]

Dear McGuba, thanks again for endless hours of your superb mod. Will you ever give us the chance to drop the atomic bomb if we are on the winning path on turn 99? I promise I will not do it over a civilian target...

[Uhu]

Riiiight...but it is not the game Civilization!

Dear McGuba, thanks again for endless hours of your superb mod. Will you ever give us the chance to drop the atomic bomb if we are on the winning path on turn 99? I promise I will not do it over a civilian target...

[faos333]

thank you, very interesting changes all of them especially the Kasserine pass ones since it was somewhat missing in version 2 it was difficult for me even to deploy some units there hence no battle occured.

I notice something about fuel reductions in each turn, maybe some more info about that.

Also, an important thing, the mod has to be offered in a such a state that newcomers have also a change to win. i feel that adding difficulties that may no occur easily.

For example a veteran player knows how to take moscow and how to take malta, hold Tunis etc so he will not face the might of the US air force, the Normandy landings etc

In other words he will not face the war on the two fronts effect, but the newby will do so the difficulty is much higher.

All in all the mod has to be attractive both to new and old players, I admit this might be a huge task to sustain though.

in any case Im very enthusiastic about the news of new version

Well, the Axis also just had one chance back then...

I am not sure you need to be able to win at the first attempt...

Pete I agree on both.

see my next post I try to explain better

[faos333]

[/quote]

Pete I agree on both

[faos333]

Quite my thoughs!
If a player would play without save-reload and without knowing, where and when the Allies attack (not to mention the cracking of Enigma!) than the endresults would be probably the same. So, the mod makes a really good job to simulate hitorical reality - as fas as possible within the border of the PzC system.
So the player can only achive victory if he is patient enough and invests a lot of time and energy to find the best solutions and learn the actions of the enemy. I play Be at least from v1.2. So, I have a lot of experience collected. Also I reload many times - not to have better fight results but to have the best choice as possible.

thank you, very interesting changes all of them especially the Kasserine pass ones since it was somewhat missing in version 2 it was difficult for me even to deploy some units there hence no battle occured.

I notice something about fuel reductions in each turn, maybe some more info about that.

Also, an important thing, the mod has to be offered in a such a state that newcomers have also a change to win. i feel that adding difficulties that may no occur easily.

For example a veteran player knows how to take moscow and how to take malta, hold Tunis etc so he will not face the might of the US air force, the Normandy landings etc

In other words he will not face the war on the two fronts effect, but the newby will do so the difficulty is much higher.

All in all the mod has to be attractive both to new and old players, I admit this might be a huge task to sustain though.

in any case Im very enthusiastic about the news of new version

Well, the Axis also just had one chance back then...

I am not sure you need to be able to win at the first attempt...

I agree that realistic wise the Mod is doing an extraordinary job, thanks to this huge work of McGuba, to my knowledge is best exp for those playing PzC universe.

My thought is towards mid game and after to be more easy to handle for newcomers, not for winning but to feel that they have chance of defending.

One idea is the distribution of prestige along the years, the other is few more flaks in the west. The end result wiil be the same but the player will feel that it has a chance on defense.

[McGuba]

Dear McGuba, thanks again for endless hours of your superb mod. Will you ever give us the chance to drop the atomic bomb if we are on the winning path on turn 99? I promise I will not do it over a civilian target...

Sorry, I do not plan to add nukes for the time being.

As for new players - besides the "realistic" and "real +" versions of the scenario there is also the "moderate" - and it is there already in the current v2.0. It has significantly less Allied units for less frustration and in that version upgrades and purchases are possible in any city hex, just like in the original game. So I think it is good enough for casual / less skilled players and for those who want to try things and strategies with less stress. But it is still quite challenging.

Also in the next version there will be less prestige in the beginning (so that new players will have less chance to waste it) but a few more German units will appear in 1941, mainly in North Africa. And some more German reinforcement units may turn up later if the player is on the losing path. So it may even be a bit easier, at least at the beginning. Then later on, the core slot limitation will be lifted so potentially players will be able to purchase some new units from mid 1942 without being forced to disband some weaker ones in order to do so. This may also make things easier, given that the player purchases the right units.

Also, an important thing, the mod has to be offered in a such a state that newcomers have also a change to win. i feel that adding difficulties that may no occur easily.

My intention is not to make the mod harder, but to make it more interesting and realistic, and to provide the players more options and choices. It would be very easy to make it harder by adding even more Allied units with even more experience. But probably it would not make the mod any better only because of that. With such a complex mod it is hard to tell how a certain change will affect the overall balance so I have to be careful. A seemingly insignificant change in 1941 can become an avalanche by 1944.

I notice something about fuel reductions in each turn, maybe some more info about that.

I think you were playing the "realistic" version of the mod. In the "realistic +" version the fuel crisis is even more significant, among others, from 1942 all ground units lose 2 units of fuel in each turn until at least two oilfields are captured and repaired. Basically it reduces the mobity of the ground units as they have to stop to refuel more often. It mainly affects ground units with low base fuel level such as the Tiger.

[PeteMitchell]

thank you, very interesting changes all of them especially the Kasserine pass ones since it was somewhat missing in version 2 it was difficult for me even to deploy some units there hence no battle occured.

I notice something about fuel reductions in each turn, maybe some more info about that.

Also, an important thing, the mod has to be offered in a such a state that newcomers have also a change to win. i feel that adding difficulties that may no occur easily.

For example a veteran player knows how to take moscow and how to take malta, hold Tunis etc so he will not face the might of the US air force, the Normandy landings etc

In other words he will not face the war on the two fronts effect, but the newby will do so the difficulty is much higher.

All in all the mod has to be attractive both to new and old players, I admit this might be a huge task to sustain though.

in any case Im very enthusiastic about the news of new version

Well, the Axis also just had one chance back then...

I am not sure you need to be able to win at the first attempt...

Pete I agree on both.

see my next post I try to explain better

On the prestige, I would still give some / enough prestige at the beginning, even if the player does mistakes with it... if you don't have much prestige, you don't have much freedom to decide on things yourself and the gameplay becomes deterministic / boring... IMHO

Maybe better to give some warnings, e.g. spend it wisely... or try to keep some minimum amount for unforeseen events, etc.

[faos333]

McGuba
Many thanks for the detailed answers, they cover my thoughts, I believe all these changes make the Mod ever more realistic and more manageable for every type of user new or veteran

Great work

[McGuba]

On the prestige, I would still give some / enough prestige at the beginning, even if the player does mistakes with it... if you don't have much prestige, you don't have much freedom to decide on things yourself and the gameplay becomes deterministic / boring... IMHO

I am not afraid that this mod would ever become boring. Even if someone has mastered the hardest version of the 1941 scenario there are still the 1942-44 start positions and the multiplayer waiting. The problem with having too much prestige in the beginning is it can make the scenario unbalanced based on how much experience the player has, exactly as faos pointed out. New players will waste it regardless of any warning messages (of which there are too many by now, anyway IMO) saying "you just don't warn me, I know it better all righty", and experienced players will know that they have to sit on it which will make a big difference between a blind and an n+x times playthrough.

Instead, I would like to try to increase the choices by for example providing a chance to retrain several strategic bomber units to fighters or by providing a chance to upgrade some Bf 109 units to Fw 190 at a reduced price, almost as if these were in the same upgrade family, instead of paying the full price as it is now. These are all optional, the game can be won with or without these but these can suit different playing styles and can increase the replay value as players can try the scenario with and without these. I think throwing a lot of prestige at the player saying do what you want with it is a cheap way to increase the choices, especially since they cannot purchase new units early on unless they disband many. I think it is more interesting to provide choices which can be either helpful or not so much. These are more similar to those things in OOB and PzC2 where the player can decide if he wants to use a new unit or hero or develop a new technology or not.

[PeteMitchell]

On the prestige, I would still give some / enough prestige at the beginning, even if the player does mistakes with it... if you don't have much prestige, you don't have much freedom to decide on things yourself and the gameplay becomes deterministic / boring... IMHO

I am not afraid that this mod would ever become boring. Even if someone has mastered the hardest version of the 1941 scenario there are still the 1942-44 start positions and the multiplayer waiting. The problem with having too much prestige in the beginning is it can make the scenario unbalanced based on how much experience the player has, exactly as faos pointed out. New players will waste it regardless of any warning messages (of which there are too many by now, anyway IMO) saying "you just don't warn me, I know it better all righty", and experienced players will know that they have to sit on it which will make a big difference between a blind and an n+x times playthrough.

Instead, I would like to try to increase the choices by for example providing a chance to retrain several strategic bomber units to fighters or by providing a chance to upgrade some Bf 109 units to Fw 190 at a reduced price, almost as if these were in the same upgrade family, instead of paying the full price as it is now. These are all optional, the game can be won with or without these but these can suit different playing styles and can increase the replay value as players can try the scenario with and without these. I think throwing a lot of prestige at the player saying do what you want with it is a cheap way to increase the choices, especially since they cannot purchase new units early on unless they disband many. I think it is more interesting to provide choices which can be either helpful or not so much. These are more similar to those things in OOB and PzC2 where the player can decide if he wants to use a new unit or hero or develop a new technology or not.

OK, thanks. I can relate to this / understand this. How much less prestige are you envisioning?

[P210]

Upcoming improvements look really good!!

I have been playing multiplayer game from the Allied side. Now at turn 28. This is really, really fun. So far 2.15 feels pretty well balanced. Though Luftwaffe is kicking my ass out of the sky

I think it can be added a new unit of a 3,7 cm AT gun switchable into a "leg mobile" version (again, without the "camo" trait in its transport mode). The utility of this new AT unit, would be that the player would have at his disposal an AT gun which do not depends on fuel to move, and it an be made air portable also...

Yes, maybe I will add such a version in the future, but not for this coming next version. For now only the 7.5 cm Pak 40 has a version which can be towed by horses and it is only available later in the war. In this way players who could not capture and repair some oil fields can still have a cheap Pak which uses no fuel and thus not affected by the per turn fuel loss. Other than that, horse transport is very cheap in the mod, it is almost for free to keep it competative with the motorised tractors. But as far as I know in the first half of the war all German AT guns were motorised so I am not sure if it is feasable to have one without a tractor.

Throwing some ideas regarding AT guns,

I do like that camo movement in transport mode is eliminated, but this reduces towed AT effectiveness a lot. If you are in contact with an enemy you have two choices, either hold tight and fight or switch to transport mode and save the poor AT troop. Shoot and scoot is no more an option. Or at least most of the time difficult to execute.

Then thingking about German doctrine for early war AT guns. Strong secondary mission for AT guns was infantry support. Guns were designed light for easy deployment, so that they could follow the infantry.

So I propose following,

8.8 cm class guns with no leg movement totally makes sense. 7.5 cm class with leg movement of 1 is good. But, how about if AT guns in sub 1/2 ton range, like 3.7 cm, could have leg movement of 2? Same actually applies to 2 cm Flak guns, which are light and can shoot from the carriage and also have secondary infantry support mission.

5 cm class guns actually would then need leg movement of 1,5 as they are "almost" movable by man power


+ One additional question, why does Finnish StuGs have an initiative of 6 instead of 7? I believe Finnish StuG crews were well trained and also fared well in combat.

[McGuba]

I do like that camo movement in transport mode is eliminated, but this reduces towed AT effectiveness a lot. If you are in contact with an enemy you have two choices, either hold tight and fight or switch to transport mode and save the poor AT troop. Shoot and scoot is no more an option.

Yes, it is indeed a problem, and it cannot be fixed. If the player shoots with a towed AT gun he cannot switch it to transport mode and move it back in the same turn. He can only move it 1 hex which is not enough in every situation.

Nevertheless, I think it is still better than having invisible ships and trains since towed AT guns would otherwise retain their camo even if being transported by these. It is especially a big problem in multiplayer games where the players can exploit it and sneak around invisible AT guns with ships as it can make all the coasts unsafe and would make the opponent quite paranoid. So unless the designers fix this issue of the base game only the above work around solution can solve this problem and provide useful towed AT guns with camo trait.

I think the towed AT guns benefit greatly from this improvement as in the base game these units are not very useful but the camo trait makes a huge difference both in single and multiplayer games. In single player it is possible to block the AI units for a long time with a single AT gun if it is well placed like behind a river crossing. The AI can only break through when it attacks with several units in the same turn. In multiplayer game it is also a lot of fun to give a bad day to the opponent with these cheeky units and it works both ways. So I think it is worth it. They get a huge advantage at the cost of not being able to switch to transport mode after shooting, I think it is fair enough.

8.8 cm class guns with no leg movement totally makes sense.

I was considering it earlier. But I guess then it should apply to the AT mode of the 88 flak as well otherwise how would you explain to the player that the 8.8 cm flak in AT mode can move but the 8.8. towed AT cannot, when in reality the flak is two times heavier? On paper yes, and it would certainly make sense from a historical point of view, but in practice it would greatly reduce the effectiveness of this unit, especially in multiplayer. If the 8.8 cm AT or flak can no longer move on its own all you have to do in multiplayer is to avoid moving units next to them to make them completely useless for the Axis player. And with no movement it is impossible to use AT guns offensively. It would make the Afrika Korps significantly weaker when it is already very fragile as it is very easy to lose the single German tank with the hero and then everything turns to a nightmare for the Axis. In single player it would be less problematic as the AI is too dumb to consider this and would still be happy to move its units next to the 88, but then it would create a big balance difference between the single player and multiplayer version of the mod which would not be very good. But of course even in single player it would make the Axis side much harder in Africa as it is currently. Moreso that in the next version I also changed the AI behaviour a bit in late 1941 to hopefully make it more effective with Operation Crusader. In order to destroy those tanks the 88 is a must IMO.

But, how about if AT guns in sub 1/2 ton range, like 3.7 cm, could have leg movement of 2? Same actually applies to 2 cm Flak guns, which are light and can shoot from the carriage and also have secondary infantry support mission.

It is more likely to happen some time later, but not in this next version as it would require further testing which in turn would postpone its release endlessly. The problem I see here is that this change would make the 2 cm flak gun just as good as the 3.7 cm one, for the former would have 1 range and 2 movement while the latter 2 range and 1 movement. Their effective shooting range would be basically the same, while the 3.7cm would be more expensive so what would the point in purchasing the 3.7cm one? I would certainly like to keep each flak type equally competative and cost effective, so I don't know...

The 3.7cm AT gun could get this movement increase but I don't think it would make it much better: it has to be upgraded to the 5 cm one by all means because it is ineffective against most tanks from early 1942. It would give it a very small window of increased usefulness in the first 10-20 turns and that's it. However, this change has the biggest chance in a future version for at least it would not break the current balance and it would make the 3.7 cm AT a bit more competative which may result in it being used longer. In reality these were used well into 1943 in relatively large numbers because the production of the 5 and 7.5 cm AT guns was fairly slow in the beginning.



....

EDIT: the lower ini of the Finnis Stug is a bug, I fixed it now, thanks.

[captainjack]

One option could be to give AT gun transports passive attack so the can at least fight back. This would be most appropriate for lighter guns which could be made ready more quickly, but some heavier guns could be fired while still not fully demounted in an emergency and at least some were designed to allow this (French 47mm TAZ mount).
Passive attack should be lower (maybe half) than when properly set up, as you'd be looking at fewer guns ready and not properly set up, though better than nothing. Since transport class also gets no or limited experience bonus in combat, unlike AT class, this should be about right.

[McGuba]

It would not really help in this case, I am afraid, because the basic problem is once you attack an enemy with such a towed AT gun you cannot switch it to transport mode in the same turn to move it back. So there is not much point in making the transport truck stronger when we cannot switch to it anyway.

Also if AT guns in transport would have a passive attack, then I guess pretty much all other ground units should also have some. In reality infantry can quickly jump out of a truck if attacked and a light AA gun in transport can also be made ready to fire fairly quickly. So again, I don't know...

[faos333]

Is there any mines sweeper? it would be very nice to have one.

[PeteMitchell]

Is there any mines sweeper? it would be very nice to have one.

I think destroyers are taking this role. There were minesweeper in WW2

[uzbek2012]

Hello everyone)

https://picturehistory.livejournal.com/1764912.html

Author tell me will you have such events as Operation Catapult and the Ardennes Operation (Wacht am Rhein)?
https://photochronograph.ru/2018/05/05/ ... voj-vojny/

[P210]

8.8 cm class guns with no leg movement totally makes sense.

I was considering it earlier. But I guess then it should apply to the AT mode of the 88 flak as well otherwise how would you explain to the player that the 8.8 cm flak in AT mode can move but the 8.8. towed AT cannot, when in reality the flak is two times heavier? On paper yes, and it would certainly make sense from a historical point of view, but in practice it would greatly reduce the effectiveness of this unit, especially in multiplayer. If the 8.8 cm AT or flak can no longer move on its own all you have to do in multiplayer is to avoid moving units next to them to make them completely useless for the Axis player. And with no movement it is impossible to use AT guns offensively. It would make the Afrika Korps significantly weaker when it is already very fragile as it is very easy to lose the single German tank with the hero and then everything turns to a nightmare for the Axis. In single player it would be less problematic as the AI is too dumb to consider this and would still be happy to move its units next to the 88, but then it would create a big balance difference between the single player and multiplayer version of the mod which would not be very good. But of course even in single player it would make the Axis side much harder in Africa as it is currently. Moreso that in the next version I also changed the AI behaviour a bit in late 1941 to hopefully make it more effective with Operation Crusader. In order to destroy those tanks the 88 is a must IMO.

I was looking this topic through single player filter and mainly thought about late war 88 Pak. You are right, zero movement in AT mode for 88 Flak would break the balance in NA and zero movement against human opponent would render all 88 weight class, no camo, ATs pretty much useless. Bad idea. I was just thinking out loud about how to make AT guns little bit more effective.
You are right also about the 2cm Flak. It seems that the old ultimatum still applies, "don't fix something that is not broken"

[McGuba]

Another area which is improved in the next version is the in-game Library. I try to make it more informative by adding more screenshots and stuff. The recent blind playthroughs of new players of the mod made it clear that this mod has perhaps one too many changes and many of them are not so obvious or easy to understand, despite the numerous in-game message boxes which also mention most of these. However, my efforts only make sense if players actually check this section since I cannot really force them.









I am not sure how I could make players to check and read these important bits of information but at least now it will be there for those who take the time for that so my conscience is clear.