The Great BJR mod is now updated to version 1.12!

[lbusuttil]

Dear Borger, Jim and Ronnie

Thank you very much for writing the BJR Mod and thank you for making it available to us. I am finding it a very interesting enhancement to the game.

As a Maltese citizen I particularly appreciate the Malta mods.

Keep up the good work!

Louis

[ncali]

Thanks for an interesting mod, guys. I know you have mentioned different players feel the game has a pro-Axis or pro-Allied feel. Myself and my friend are in the latter camp. We have played 3 full games with the mod. Each has ended in 1944 with an Allied victory - 2 with a strategic Allied victory and 1 with an ultimate Allied victory. We switched sides with these games. In each game, the Axis strategy was somewhat different but one thing remained - the Soviet Union proved incredibly strong.

It could be that we are both better Allied players or worse Axis players, but I am curious to test that out. This isn't exactly a challenge - although I am competitive (and consider myself a decent player), I enjoy a good game, win or lose. I was wondering if one of the 3 original modders might be willing to play a game with me where I take the Allies? My friend indicated he might be willing to play a game with another of the modders as well, if a couple of you are available. We both are very good about getting turns back, and often can return a few turns a day. And we have been committed players - playing the games through to the end. We have both played multiple (perhaps 8-10) games of the original CEAW in addition to the mod games I mentioned. I'm on the West Coast of the US (GMT -7) in case time zones are an issue. Please post or send me a private message if interested.

[rkr1958]

I was wondering if one of the 3 original modders might be willing to play a game with me where I take the Allies? My friend indicated he might be willing to play a game with another of the modders as well, if a couple of you are available. We both are very good about getting turns back, and often can return a few turns a day. And we have been committed players - playing the games through to the end. We have both played multiple (perhaps 8-10) games of the original CEAW in addition to the mod games I mentioned. I'm on the West Coast of the US (GMT -7) in case time zones are an issue. Please post or send me a private message if interested.

I'm currently playing five games and just wrapped up a 6th against Randy. I'm finding that I can on average play two or three quality moves per day. Sometimes it may only be two. This means for me that for 6 games I can make a move every other day (or so). Bottom line is that I can probably handle three turns a week. Also, I'm playing a slight tweak to our mod as part of our teams on going upgrade effort. Basically it's a new Country.class file that prevents the Axis oil stockpile from dropping below 0 and staying negative. If all this is ok PM me with your email address and I'll start a game as the Axis.

[ncali]

Thanks for the quick response, rkr. That could work - unless, perhaps one of the other 2 modders have a bit more time/availability?

[rkr1958]

Thanks for the quick response, rkr. That could work - unless, perhaps one of the other 2 modders have a bit more time/availability?

We can wait to see what Borger and Jim have to say. Believe me you'd definitely have your hands full playing either of those two. I would be the easiest of our team to beat.

Also, speaking from personal experience Joe Rock would give you more than you could handle playing against the Axis. You might check with him. Joe's is in the same league as Borger and Jim.

[Happycat]

Thanks for the quick response, rkr. That could work - unless, perhaps one of the other 2 modders have a bit more time/availability?

We can wait to see what Borger and Jim have to say. Believe me you'd definitely have your hands full playing either of those two. I would be the easiest of our team to beat.

Also, speaking from personal experience Joe Rock would give you more than you could handle playing against the Axis. You might check with him. Joe's is in the same league as Borger and Jim.

Unfortunately I am up to my ears in games right now, and am heading out of town in a little over a week. I'll be gone two weeks, with limited internet access.

Sorry to disappoint.

Also, I think Joe, Borger or Ronnie would give you a better game than me. I disagree with rkr's ranking himself as less proficient at this game than me. Sandbagging, methinks

[ncali]

Thanks guys. I sent rkr a private message about starting a game!

[schwerpunkt]

Hi guys.
Have played the game against friends as both the allies and axis and are finding the soviets too powerful in 1941. By around Jun 1941, the soviets usually build about 11 armoured units (no if or garrisons) and by favouring armour and air technology can get to level 8 armour around Oct 1941. As the Germans, I can get to level 9 armour around the same time (and usually go in with about 10 armour units, 6 TACs and 6 FTRs) but the minimal tech difference means the soviets can vigorously defend the Dnepr river line where the bulk of the German armour is and make crossing extremely costly. Are the force and tech ratios typical of your games?
Thanks! (I love the mod otherwise)

[schwerpunkt]

PS: or do you play a house rule (eg release of sovet reserves from Siberia etc)?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

We haven't noticed this in our current games, but the Russian players have built many corps units or garrisons and not primarily and offensive force.

I've played against a Russian player swarming the front line cities with garrisons. That was a nuisance, but I eventually killed these. You just send 1 air unit per garrison and finish them off with your land units. I didn't get so far in 1941, but in 1942 his defense line collapsed and he lost Leningrad, Moscow, Rostov etc. and I could have pushed for Stalingrad and beyond. So building lots of garrisons is not necessarily a good idea.

I've also played against Russians who attack with air and armor in 1941. Then I lost a few Germans, but I killed some of the most valuable Russians. Then the Russians were weaker in 1942 and I could force a general retreat. So attacking during the Summer and Fall 1941 as the Russians is not a good idea either.

But I haven't seen many Russians building armor and air units and keep them in the reserve for use after winter strikes. You need to keep them quite far in the reserve or German tac bombers can seriously deplete them. Since you can only move 2 hexes in the winter it means you won't be able to engage the weakened Axis front line for a turn or two. You will get within range of the Luftwaffe before you get a chance to attack.

So I think the best way for the Germans to defend against aggressive Russians is to build a lot of air units and infantry units and move coherently towards the Russian line, i. e. no armor spearheads taking cities without infantry support etc.

But I see the potential of the Russians to take less experienced Germans by surprise and disrupt the game in 1941 so we might have to do slight changes to the mod.

E. g. we increased the antitank tech for Russia from 1 to 2. It was done to make them survive Luftwaffe bombers due to getting better FlaK sooner and good antitank value so they can inflict harm upon the German tanks. This is historical because the T34 tank was a shock to the Germans and they had to redesign their panzers after the initial clashes between T34's and Pz III's and Px IV's in October 1941. That spawned the excellent Panther and also the heavy Tiger tanks. We could let the Russians get back to at start antitank tech 1 again as in the vanilla game. Then they will be at a disadvantage tech wise against
the Germans.

We also increased the Russian at start organization from 0 to 1 because earlier playtesting showed that the Russians were so far behind tech wise on
organization that they had big problems later in the war. The Germans inflicted terrible losses on the attacking Russians and the offensives fizzled.
But I see the problem that if the Russians build leaders in 1941 in addition to having slightly better organization then the Russian units can be too good compared to how they were. So it might be necessary to drop the at start organization from 1 to 0 if we allow many of the major powers to begin with a leader.

Russia got one extra armor unit compared to the vanilla game because they "lost" the Baku oil hex to Germany to simulate the traded oil. We calculated that the PP's lost from this was about 80 from 1939 till June 22nd 1941. Maybe we instead can remove this armor and give the Russians 2 extra corps units or 5 extra garrisons (placed in the rear). That reduces the offensive firepower a bit.

The Russians got some extra air units to balance extra Axis air units like a Finnish fighter etc. It's possible to maybe take away one of the at start 5 fighters. We saw that the Russians had too few fighters in the vanilla game so they weren't able to even protect their land units retreated to the rear. Germany could send strat bombers to "silence" the 2 Russian rear fighters and then use tac bombers against the hiding rear armor units without being intercepted.

So it's very dangerous to weaken the Russians too much or the Germans will crush them in 1941 or 1942. You need to have a Russian threat kept in the reserve to keep the Germans from just going all out. But a good Russian player can maybe use his offensive reserve so well and even strenghthen it so it can become too effective and make a lot of problems for Germany.

But the problems about building a very strong Russian strike force in 1941 can also be done in the vanilla game. How do you stop that as the Germans? In the vanilla game it's too easy to get to Perm and that indicates the Russians are maybe too weak. In the BJR-mod the Russians have the possibility to seriously punish an unaware German player in 1941 so it's harder to be the Axis. I see the main problem is that not very experienced Axis players don't know how to deal with such a threat and therefore their initiative is lost in 1941. That is frustrating.

I believe the BJR-mod is not very imbalanced in Russia in 1941, but for inexperienced players it can look like so. For experienced players the mod seems quite balanced. So a good compromise could be to lessen the Russian OFFENSIVE potential a bit and increase the defensive potential instead. E. g. giving the Russians a few less armor units and more garrisons or corps units could do the trick. But the problem is that the Russian player can decide to spend even more of their PP's to armor and get the same number of armor units (11+ by June 1941). This can even be done in the vanilla game.

Reducing the at start antitank tech back from 2 to 1 is a possibility. It makes the armor units slightly weaker. Is that a good idea?

I'm a bit more reluctant to reduce the at start organization because if Germany starts with 3 and Russia 0 then this gap will be there throughout the entire war. A gap of 2 seems more right than a gap of 3. Another solution could be to do the following.

Another way of solving this could be to alter the organization tech increases

* Decrease tech 1 organization from 5 to 3
* Increase tech 2 organization from 6 to 8
* Increase tech 3 organization from 8 to 10
* Decrease tech 4 organization from 7 to 6
* Decrease tech 5 organization from 4 to 3
* Keep tech 6 organization at 3

This has the following effect. The organization gap between Russia and Germany is just 2 instead of 3 as in the vanilla game, but the effective difference at the start of the game is only +1 better organization for Russia instead of +5 compared to the vanilla game. So Russia will start 1941 as weak as in the vanilla game. The difference between the Germans and western Allies are the same since tech 2 and tech 3 both get +2 increase. France remain at tech 1 and will get 2 efficiency lower compared to Germany as before, but it's countered by allowing France to start with a leader at the start of the game.

Russia won't stay behind as much because they will get tech 2 and tech 3 later in the war. So by doing this change we keep the Russian fighting power down in 1941, but they will become much better if the Russian player invests in general tech and focus on organization.

I think this could be a very good solution that would simulate the 1941 problems for Russia a bit more.

I would like your opinions about what you like to change in Russia.

I propose the following possibilities.

1. Change the organization increases as shown above. This will temporarily increase the efficiency gap between Germany and Russia by 4 and encourage the Russian player to invest in general labs to boost his organization tech.

2. Reduce the Russian at start antitank value from 2 to 1 (then it's the same as in the vanilla game)

3. Remove 1 Russian fighter (in Siberia). Then the at start fighters is reduced from 5 to 4.

4. Replace 1 Russian armor in Siberia with 1 corps and 3 garrisons. These units are all placed near the Omsk second capital. Then the at start armor units is reduced from 7 to 6.

Do you have other proposals?

[schwerpunkt]

Thanks for the quick reply!
When I play the russians now, I concentrate on building armour and deploy it along the Dnepr river backed by fighters. The line from Smolensk to Pskov is where I deploy russian infantry (and steadily reinforce them at Novgorod with armour). Around September 41 I switch to building leaders to get the organisation levels up to stiffen resistance further and to be even more effective in winter.

I guess the concern I have is that the russian player gets to throw everything at the Germans from day 1 of the invasion rather than having to wait until reserves were actually released in the winter. Perhaps its best to start with a house rule if you think the balance is close already - ie perhaps all units east of Stalingrad should be "held in reserve until winter". That would mean that the Germans would not have to deal with the two fighters, two tacs, three armour and a bunch of infantry initially during the good weather.
Thoughts?

[raffo80]

1. Change the organization increases as shown above. This will temporarily increase the efficiency gap between Germany and Russia by 4 and encourage the Russian player to invest in general labs to boost his organization tech.

2. Reduce the Russian at start antitank value from 2 to 1 (then it's the same as in the vanilla game)

3. Remove 1 Russian fighter (in Siberia). Then the at start fighters is reduced from 5 to 4.

4. Replace 1 Russian armor in Siberia with 1 corps and 3 garrisons. These units are all placed near the Omsk second capital. Then the at start armor units is reduced from 7 to 6.

Do you have other proposals?

I would personally take 2 air fighters out (russia) and eliminate the finnish fighter (quite useless anyway). Agreed with armor and organization and tech.

I have another issue that i noticed: both playing allies or axis, i notice in '42 and later germans have always bad air fights results. not sure it is due to tech or the fact germans problably are in yellow manpower, but was this historical? in real war, germans had problems in airpower due to superiority in numbers by allies. But in mod, even in 1vs1 fights, germans always take more steps damage.

I am playing a game with ronnie where he was forced to retreat air fighters from germany cause losing more steps than allies every turn. i notice this in all games as axis or allies.

[schwerpunkt]

I have another issue that i noticed: both playing allies or axis, i notice in '42 and later germans have always bad air fights results. not sure it is due to tech or the fact germans problably are in yellow manpower, but was this historical? in real war, germans had problems in airpower due to superiority in numbers by allies. But in mod, even in 1vs1 fights, germans always take more steps damage.

I am playing a game with ronnie where he was forced to retreat air fighters from germany cause losing more steps than allies every turn. i notice this in all games as axis or allies.

Cant say that I've run into this problem as the German but I do maintain a good FTR tech and try to avoid flying fighters that have low organisation. I do get surprised though by the amount of damage that the Germans take from lower tech, lower org russian FTRs (eg 1 vs 2 or 2 vs 3). Would have expected to see more 0 vs 2 results (do get the occaisional 0 vs 1 result or 1 vs 3).

Thinking of more house rules, another approach might be to limit the russians to 5 armour builds before war and say 2 FTR builds.

In terms of mod changes, I think the changes that both of you have suggested would help the Germans in 41 and probably 42. Just a question of how far it tilts things.

[rkr1958]

My experience as both the Allies and the Axis is that Russia isn't too strong. If they use their air aggressively in 1941 then my experience is that they take losses in air to air at a rate of 2:1 or worse. But I've also found that you have to be careful on advance and protect the German armor. But, I have yet to playe someone that as the Russian has built additional air and/or armor in prior to the Axis invasion.

[schwerpunkt]

My experience as both the Allies and the Axis is that Russia isn't too strong. If they use their air aggressively in 1941 then my experience is that they take lose in air to air at a rate of 2:1 or worse. But I've also found that you have to be careful on advance and protect the German armor. But, I have played someone (yet) that as the Russian has built additional air and/or armor in prior to the Axis invasion.

As the russian, I dont use my airforce offensively in 1941. I put my FTRs just in range of my front line (to minimise airattacks by German FTRs) in order to force to the Germans to fly escorts. If the Germans are unable to advance very rapidly however, the russians can repair their air on their turn whilst the Germans on their following turn are either forced to either repair their FTRs and fly their TACs with limited escorts or fly the TACs with damaged escorts. Either way it promotes attritional warfare which is bad long term for the Germans as it prevents them increasing their forces significantly due to the build points lost.

Russian armour is based behind river lines only (eg Dvina, Dnepr, Don, Volga) and counterattacks any units that manage to open a hole across it (ie any German unit that crosses is subject to at least two attacks from russian armour (the second attack usually causes significant damage reducing most German units to less than 6 strength). Infantry entrenched in forests is used to attrition German armour which can allow russian counter attacks if they are weakened enough.

[schwerpunkt]

PS: The trick as the russian is to know how long to defend the Dnepr river. If the Germans manage to get across in any significant strength and their air is doing well (or the damage rate gets too high), then you need to pull back to the next line (and force his airforce and army to catch up). Infantry are used to act as "road bumps" in cities in the inbetween areas.

[schwerpunkt]

Just playing a game now - late October 41 following a July invasion (delayed as Germany made a succesful effort to take Egpyt and Jerusalem using 3 armour, 2 FTR and 1 TAC). Russia has 12 armour units lined up along the Dnepr (starting around just north of Kiev down to Dnepretrovsk) with another 3 around Smolensk and another 3 around Pskov. No russian air units lost.
Kiev, Krivoy Rog and Minsk have fallen and Tallin is about to. Germans have 10 armour, 5 TACs and 5 FTRs. German tank tech is 10 total (vs russian total "8") whilst FTRs are total 9 (vs russian total 3) (despite the latter large difference, russian FTRs do surprisingly well).[/img]

[ncali]

I would like your opinions about what you like to change in Russia.

I propose the following possibilities.

1. Change the organization increases as shown above. This will temporarily increase the efficiency gap between Germany and Russia by 4 and encourage the Russian player to invest in general labs to boost his organization tech.

2. Reduce the Russian at start antitank value from 2 to 1 (then it's the same as in the vanilla game)

3. Remove 1 Russian fighter (in Siberia). Then the at start fighters is reduced from 5 to 4.

4. Replace 1 Russian armor in Siberia with 1 corps and 3 garrisons. These units are all placed near the Omsk second capital. Then the at start armor units is reduced from 7 to 6.

Do you have other proposals?

I agree the Soviets are overpowered, particularly in 1941. At least from my own experience, the Soviets can almost single-handedly win the war by mid to late '44. We'll see how it goes in my game with rkr where we are just starting '41. I like these suggestions - but I'd go a little further. I would eliminate the one armour (in additio not the fighter), not replace it with any units, and freeze 2 more armour units until December of '41 to simluate Siberian reinforcements.

By the way, I don't know if you have time for a game - Stauffenberg - but the friend I played with was also interested in playing one of the modders (in part to test out our theory the Soviets were overpowered). If interested, let me know - and I'll give you his email.

[Celeborn]

If so, I would like to throw down the following gauntlet:

Background: The elite units of the varying nationalities tended to have a major impact on the battles in which they were present and became legendary (even in defeat). Alas, CEAW only indirectly addresses elite units throught the experience mechanism and even then does so with none of the historical flavor such as names. With that in mind I challenge the BJR crew to rework the purchase mechanism in the next version to allow for the following units:

British (Guards)
All units +1 in all categories
Beginning 1944 May purchase up to 2 infantry, 2 motorized, and 2 armor at the following cost:
Infantry 45
Motorized 55
Armor 95

Soviet (Guards)
Effect: +1 in all categories except movement, naval, sub and strategic attack
Each year beginning 1942 may purchase 1 infantry, 1 motorized, and 1 armor at the following cost:
Infantry 45
Motorized 55
Armor 95

Soviet (Shock)
Effect: +1 Shock, +1 Attack
Starting Nov 1941 may purchase up to 2 infantry and 2 motorized at the following cost:
Infantry 40
Motorized 50

German (SS)
All units +1 in all categories except movement, naval, sub and strategic attack
Each year beginning 1941 may purchase 1 infantry, 1 motorized, and 1 armor at the following cost:
Infantry 45
Motorized 55
Armor 95

Welcome comments!

Steve

[Amandil]

Quick question:

When playing the BJR mod against the AI, should I be following the house rules? I assume the AI won't!