SCW Generalissimus - no trophies

[lortt1]

Is it possible to beat SCW DLC on generalissimus difficulty without using mass encirclements? I dont like that playstyle.

If so, which traits I should pick?

I won the vanilla campaign on generalissimus with liberator trait rather easily, but it does not seem to work on SCW, the AI drains my prestige.

[Edmon]

Is it possible to beat SCW DLC on generalissimus difficulty without using mass encirclements? I dont like that playstyle.

If so, which traits I should pick?

I won the vanilla campaign on generalissimus with liberator trait rather easily, but it does not seem to work on SCW, the AI drains my prestige.

I think this campaign is sort of designed around some capturing, since the tanks the enemy has will be much better than yours. What you can do is take killer team and re-roll until you get overwhelming attack + shocktactics/Envelopment. This will allow you to create a unit that captures units with a single hit, without any encirclements. So you can claim some tanks but otherwise fight normally.

[DefiantXYX]

I won the vanilla campaign on generalissimus with liberator trait rather easily, but it does not seem to work on SCW, the AI drains my prestige.

If you limit your stock, your allies wont repair all the time and drain your prestige. On the other side it also makes it harder for you, since you wont capture a lot off stuff from the enemy with your playstyle.

[nexusno2000]

Is it possible to beat SCW DLC on generalissimus difficulty without using mass encirclements? I dont like that playstyle.

If so, which traits I should pick?

I won the vanilla campaign on generalissimus with liberator trait rather easily, but it does not seem to work on SCW, the AI drains my prestige.

The SCW is the special case here, bc the AI infantry both behaves in a mindless manner AND they reinforce from YOUR prestige pool. In the scenarios where you have some control of Ai inf you can limit the prestige drained but there are plenty of scenarios where you cannot completely avoid this prestige drain. Liberator just doesn't generate enough prestige, only captures matter at the GM level. It's probably possible to do it wo captures but the SCW is going to be a painful slog for you.

Once you hit 39 you should have no problems. Gift units, caches, prototypes from the scenarios, and maybe Industry Connections will give you enough good stuff to have an edge vs AI. Play with good supporting placement and you should be swimming in prestige, even on GM, even wo captures.

[nexusno2000]

The other main option in SCW is hero cheese.

Use Killer Team and stack those heroes high.

But this is a pretty lame way to do it as it requires you to get the good heroes. Definitely doable.

[lortt1]

Thanks for the comments. Galland is the only reason why I even bother playing SCW, so maybe I will give a try with the hero cheese.

My aim is to play whole AO dlc series with generalissimus. So do you guys think that it is doable prestigewise without trophies/capture playstyle?

I have played AO with general difficulty and I am swimming in prestige. Probably I wont continue to AO43 with my current general core as it is way too easy.

[nexusno2000]

After SCW you don't need capture for prestige, only to get some good French tanks and such. After 1939 I get bored even with that and just blast everything.

[Bee1976]

Well, SCW without mass encirclements and mass captures is possible on generalissimus. But it is really hard.

I dislike that encircle all playstyle aswell, i dont play with it. Completly without capturing is way way way harder because of the inferior german hardware. If you want to try this:
Use the "Hold Position" Order on your allies, form the frontline bring in support and then unleash the infantry
Cheap 1 Slot Strat-Bombers help to soften enemy units.

But i recommend playing without trophies trait or mass encirclements, but capture "valuable" equipment.

[sakura006]

I beat the entire AO on generalissimus. SCW is the most difficult one IMO. There is no challenge at all beyond SCW. In SCW, you have less units, less experience, less heroes, less prestige and worse equipment compared to your enemy. You have no effective AT weapon against enemy tanks until 88 mm. You have no effective way to counter enemy air force unless you take AA veteran. You have no effective way to eliminate infantry in close terrain. Your AI "friend" constantly consumes your precious prestige. The scale of battle in some mission is even larger than Moscow and Stalingrad. I would also like to know how you can beat it if you don't encircle and capture enemy units.

[adiekmann]

I haven't beaten SCW in anything higher than the middle difficulty for all the reason that others have already laid out. I do not play to encircle and capture everything because I find it boring. I am an old school Panzer General/Panzer Corps player who wants to smash everything quickly and efficiently as I go, not work out encirclements. That being said, especially in SCW, there are times when you really need that big Russian gun, or facing a difficult opponent and encirclement is the only way. As a result, I never take any of the "Power Four" other than just Trophies in SCW. All the other I have beaten in Generalissimus level, including starting without an imported core in AO41.

[nexusno2000]

In SCW the great prestige generator is capture.

Play without Trophies on GM for a greater challenge. You will gain SOME prestige and SOME parts, so that's good, but it won't be enough to see you through - if you're not also careful. But IMO you don't need MASS encirclements. It's enough to go after units with equipment that you want, and the odd heavy AA and artillery pieces. It's pretty rough though, as there are scenarios that will really sap your prestige no matter what you do, thanks to the AI ally and the horrible way they recover with YOUR prestige. Horrible, horrible game design there

The best way to SAVE prestige which you have control over is AA VETERAN. Playing SCW without this one is... just painful. You will save countless prestige from losses you'd otherwise take from enemy air. And you can keep a much smaller airforce which means more OS steamroller tanks with good hero combos and heavy artillery.

[adiekmann]

In SCW the great prestige generator is capture.

Play without Trophies on GM for a greater challenge. You will gain SOME prestige and SOME parts, so that's good, but it won't be enough to see you through - if you're not also careful. But IMO you don't need MASS encirclements. It's enough to go after units with equipment that you want, and the odd heavy AA and artillery pieces. It's pretty rough though, as there are scenarios that will really sap your prestige no matter what you do, thanks to the AI ally and the horrible way they recover with YOUR prestige. Horrible, horrible game design there

The best way to SAVE prestige which you have control over is AA VETERAN. Playing SCW without this one is... just painful. You will save countless prestige from losses you'd otherwise take from enemy air. And you can keep a much smaller airforce which means more OS steamroller tanks with good hero combos and heavy artillery.

True, I cannot imagine playing SCW without AA Veteran. I drop it once I get to Russia, but once the war turns on the Germans and they begin to face massive Allied air power, I think I'll need it possibly again. An alternative to AA Veteran is to use Lethal Attack heroes on your AA guns if you have an abundance of those (one of my favorites along with camouflage).

[impar]

Tried the SCW in Generalissimus this weekend, Liberator trait, also dont like to play large encirclements.
Reached Merida and then stopped, AI was draining prestige and failing to contribute by capturing.
Went from 640 to 7 prestige in just a few turns.

Tried in Field Marshall, reached Corunna yesterday with ~1.500 prestige. Tight, but looking good, considering better equipement, experience and heroes start doing their work.

[impar]

Tried SCW Generalissimus again and had the luck of geting Diedrich Mayer in Merida, Legendary, +50 prestige.
It gives the expression "game changer" a profound meaning.

[RVallant]

It is pretty brutal without using encirclements.

I'm playing on normal and I can understand why it got hammered in the reviews, it is one of those really frustrating experiences; the tech disparity, the AI being off its rocker, the prestige issues. It really isn't a flexible DLC for playstyles that doesn't take advantage of/exploit 'trophies of war.'

I didn't think it was possible to get through Brunete without encirclements if you're stubborn like me, and stick to the basic equipment - as without encirclements + surrender those tanks and Armoured cars just demolish most of what you can field. Some of the Republican Armoured Cars are basically tanks with recon move.

[Grondel]

It is pretty brutal without using encirclements.

I'm playing on normal and I can understand why it got hammered in the reviews, it is one of those really frustrating experiences; the tech disparity, the AI being off its rocker, the prestige issues. It really isn't a flexible DLC for playstyles that doesn't take advantage of/exploit 'trophies of war.'

I didn't think it was possible to get through Brunete without encirclements if you're stubborn like me, and stick to the basic equipment - as without encirclements + surrender those tanks and Armoured cars just demolish most of what you can field. Some of the Republican Armoured Cars are basically tanks with recon move.

i also don't like the way encirclement/capture and prestige intertwine and make each other obsolete.
The easy solution i found is the general trait ruthless. it prevents enemy surrender and thus i can encircle to demobilize/cripple the enemy without ending the campaign with aprox 91826753491^26345 prestige.

A better way of handling this would have been to capture the equip and then u can decide if u want to use it or sell it for prestige. the combination of prestige+use the equip makes this mechanic to dominant.

Beating SCW without mass capture is very well doable, encirclement is a key feature of the game and playing without it would be like playing a FPS-shooter with knife only. Can be done, very rewarding if it works, but u need to be really good and will lose a lot of friends.

sers,
Thomas

[adiekmann]

A better way of handling this would have been to capture the equip and then u can decide if u want to use it or sell it for prestige. the combination of prestige+use the equip makes this mechanic to dominant.

sers,
Thomas

I always felt that capturing equipment should earn you NO prestige, but at the same time cost you nothing to use it. To me, that makes the most sense in reality. For example, did Rommel in N. Afrika have less equipment sent to him just because he captured some Allied vehicles? No, of course not. Nor did he have to "give" anything to use it.

[Retributarr]

I always felt that capturing equipment should earn you NO prestige, but at the same time cost you nothing to use it. To me, that makes the most sense in reality. For example, did Rommel in N. Afrika have less equipment sent to him just because he captured some Allied vehicles? No, of course not. Nor did he have to "give" anything to use it.

I have always had the same line of thinking in mind myself! "adiekmann"... so!... perhaps!... changes can possibly be made in this 'Game' to accommodate such a change... as it should... really!... as it makes very-good-sense!.

The only thing is that if one accumulates substantial-quantities of captured equipment... there should be some restrictions as to how much of it can be fielded at any one time... otherwise heavy-concentrated usage of this captured equipment could seriously-impact or disrupt the playability of the 'Game' itself!.

[DefiantXYX]

I always felt that capturing equipment should earn you NO prestige, but at the same time cost you nothing to use it.

Prestige is something like a cost collector. Its not money, it is no material thing.
Sometimes it feels very strange, since there is no other currency.
You got a tiger an the end of the world, stucked between the lines and you can easily repair it by using "prestige"? You recycle some old units and get "prestige" for that?
How does prestige exactly help you if you need ammo, fuel and other stuff?

I think the system is as good as it can be in a game like this.
If you capture some stuff it means you also get ammo, fuel, even some prisoners you can send back to home, where they have to work in the industries ==> prestige
You want to use some foreign units? Well you need training, a crew, maybe speciell equipment to make it running. And correct me if I am wrong, using capture stuff costs you nothing as long as you do not "upgrade" your stuff. If you downgrade 10 tiger to 10 t34 you get some prestige back.

[adiekmann]

I always felt that capturing equipment should earn you NO prestige, but at the same time cost you nothing to use it.

Prestige is something like a cost collector. Its not money, it is no material thing.
Sometimes it feels very strange, since there is no other currency.
You got a tiger an the end of the world, stucked between the lines and you can easily repair it by using "prestige"? You recycle some old units and get "prestige" for that?
How does prestige exactly help you if you need ammo, fuel and other stuff?

I think the system is as good as it can be in a game like this.
If you capture some stuff it means you also get ammo, fuel, even some prisoners you can send back to home, where they have to work in the industries ==> prestige
You want to use some foreign units? Well you need training, a crew, maybe speciell equipment to make it running. And correct me if I am wrong, using capture stuff costs you nothing as long as you do not "upgrade" your stuff. If you downgrade 10 tiger to 10 t34 you get some prestige back.

No, I reject part of your argument. Does it take special training to learn how to drive a GMC truck built in Detroit vs. an Opel truck built in Brandenburg? No, that's absurd. You are confusing WW2 equipment with today's. Yes, all the high tech electronics in today's tanks, aircraft, and other equipment makes it very different than from those of WW2. The basic principles of how to fly an aircraft or operate a tank if you are already a trained user remain largely the same for this time period.

Most captured stuff I do not use anyway because it is inferior or equal to that you already have available to you. The real restriction should be on quantities available to you rather than if you have enough "prestige" to "buy" it. Little more than 1,000 Tiger Is and less than 500 Tiger IIs were built in the entire war. I don't care how influential or successful you are as a field commander; that doesn't increase production.

That being said, yes, I agree with a lot of the examples that you pinpointed above. Now, we can go in circles arguing about this or that, but this is a game and really that's what limits the degree of realism that can be implemented in its design. The best description, I think, for what you are describing are shortages in supply and resources, and the prestige system is the best that game designers have come up with. Let's not get bogged down into trying to apply a rational name for it (e.g. currency, influence, etc.). All war games have some sort of "currency" that you need to acquire more of anything.

I have moved towards supporting the idea of limited stock supply, but its major flaw as it currently stands is how it is universal across all types of units. I believe the core slot system was originally intended to reflect the scarcity and production costs of various weapon systems such as the Tiger tank, but we always need to be reminded of the focus and type of game we are discussing here and stop trying to turn it into something else entirely, like Civ8 or whatever. Therefore, anything more than minor tweaks are risking changing Panzer Corps into something too far away from what makes it so enjoyable in the first place. I can imagine this thought is always are the forefront of every decision that the game designers have always needed to weigh before making any fundamental changes to the game system (like the encirclement and supply system introduced in PC2).

What I proposed in my post was an attempt to address the problem of requiring the capture of large numbers of equipment to fuel your war chest and it becoming grossly inflated with people exploiting it...but then again, everyone and every game has things that good players learn to exploit to their advantage sooner or later. In real, the whole advantage of capturing enemy equipment was free and immediate use of it - if you needed it. You could not convert some crappy British cruiser tanks into Panzer Mk.IVs for instance. That's why I don't think you should get prestige for captures and as a consequence not be required to spent any for its use. In short, a zero-zero situation.