Panzer Corps 2 World Championship - Official thread (1st round starting on September 15)

[Trepko]

I don't know if the 1000 points/forfeit are given through an algorithm or by a human (tournament organizer).
But if I understand correctly what you wrote, you earned 1000 points for your allied side because you never could play (your opponent never deployed, and so you never had the opportunity to play, and that's why you never received a PBEM email)
On the contrary, you deployed as axis, but apparently very late. So, the algorithm/organizer considered it is as if you never really played (you didn't play for 20 days and only played a turn one day before the end), and granted the 1000 points to your opponent.
On one hand, in your situation you can obviously consider this is not fair for you (as you mentionned, your opponent said he would stop playing this tournament). On the other hand, this mechanism is a protection for "honest" player against vicious ones. Imagine a situation where an honest player plays normally his turn. His (vicious) opponent decides to stop playing (whatever the reason). The vicious player then waits for the end of the round (21 days). But 1 minute before the end of the round, he plays his turn. Obviously the honest player won't have the time/possibility to play his turn, and the game will end with the honest player's turn pending. This would be totally unfair to grant the points to the vicious player just because it was the honest player's turn to play. So the algorithm/organizer will detect this unfair manner and grant the honest player the remaining points, even if it was his turn to play when round finished.

In the end, I think the email system properly works, but I think you misunderstood in which game you earned points and in which game you didn't.
- On allied side, you never received the notification (because it was never your turn), and you earned the points.
- On axis side, the way you played (deploying very late) has been considered (automatically or humanly) as unfair and points were granted to your opponent, even if it was his turn to play when round finished.

At least this is what I understand from what you wrote and from my own experience.

Yeah I do not understand the 500 rule assignment either on forfeit/unfinished games. I have played two games, was doing really well and my opponent sent me a message that he is going away for three weeks and he wont continue (not gonna dispute that, RL happens to all of us) So I finished my rounds and ended up with lousy 900 points for both games - kind of gutted...

The 500 points rule: from what I understand, the points are given only during your "attacker side", and if you manage to win (= take all victory hexes) before the game ends (= before the end of your 15th turn)

[StuG_Tutor]

On December 8th, I received the following prompt via e-mail:

"Dear StuG_Tutor,
Your multiplayer game of Panzer Corps II called WC2021 - Round 4 has started. You will be notified when it is your turn.
Regards,
The Slitherine Team"

I received no e-mail indicating it was ever my turn.

The prompt structure in place:

Player 1 deploys in game 1
Player 2 deploys in both games
Player 1 deploys in second game and takes first turn in first game
Player 2 takes turn in both games
Player 1 takes turn in both games...

I followed the prompt structure regardless of my last minute "just in case" deployment. The system should have given me 2000* points. Why? Because my opponent NEVER showed and it was NEVER my turn. It's not rocket science.

I followed the directions as I'm sure many others did who were second player and got 1000 points when player one was a no show and the system never informed them it was their turn.

Penalizing players who follow directions is extremely unfair. If it's "baked into the system" the system is broken.

For next tournament I would suggest the following wording, assuming tournament design varies from what the prompts are currently indicating:

"Your multiplayer game of Panzer Corps II called WC2022 - Round x has started. It is your turn in game 2.
Going forward, you will be notified by e-mail when it is in your turn in either game."

Any insinuation that "waiting to be instructed it's your turn before you take your turn" is cheating, dishonest or vicious is an assertion beyond ludicrous. What I and I'm sure many others did was follow directions. For the first seventeen days of the round I waited for DarkBlueInk (who many of us recall vocally dropped out of the tournament in a now deleted post) to deploy. I naively trusted that since it was never my turn I'd get the full 2000 points. Breaking ranks and deploying forces "just in case," was an afterthought--a just in case the system wasn't properly programmed. Again, it's not rocket science.

All player 2 participants who received 1000 points in a no show "split match" need to be given 2000*. If they were people who follow directions they would have never deployed because it was never their turn.

* As I've stated elsewhere the 2000 point award is not justifiable--especially after the adjustment of awarding 500 points for gaining the victory objectives.

[Trepko]

Please forgive me, but either you didn't understand me or I didn't understand you.

In game 1 (your opponent as Axis, you as Allied) => Your opponent is considered as no show (he never deployed, it has never been your turn, you didn't receive any email) => you got all the points for this game (1000).
In game 2 (you as Axis, your opponent as Allied) => You are considered as no-show (deploying too late is considered as no-show, cf my previous post concerning the reason why) => your opponent got 1000 points.
I'm sure you understand that Darkblueink can't automatically be considered as no-show in both games just because he wrote one time somewhere on this forum that he would give up this tournament. Don't get me wrong, I read his post where he stated that, so I know it's true. But it has no value regarding the tournament itself.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "prompt structure". You seem to implicate that games 1 and 2 are somehow linked => they're not. Both games are totally independant, and can be played simultaneously, or one after the other, or one played and not the other, etc...

[brianjones17]

I have a scoring question . My Russians took all victory hex's and the game ended declaring me the winner. My Germans hold all victory hex's and I have destroyed all Russians in the middle of the map and have 2 weak T34s left on the Eastern side of the map. I have also claimed the Russian spawn city and most flags center and right on the map. The remaining Russian units are stranded on the Western side of the map with no Bridge engineers left. So my question is how do I achieve a German victory and claim the 500 bonus points. the game is at turn 11 . thanks for any advise

[Brausebad]

I think your opponent should move on and if you keep all winning spaces before the 15th round, the 500 point are yours

[Trepko]

I have a scoring question . My Russians took all victory hex's and the game ended declaring me the winner. My Germans hold all victory hex's and I have destroyed all Russians in the middle of the map and have 2 weak T34s left on the Eastern side of the map. I have also claimed the Russian spawn city and most flags center and right on the map. The remaining Russian units are stranded on the Western side of the map with no Bridge engineers left. So my question is how do I achieve a German victory and claim the 500 bonus points. the game is at turn 11 . thanks for any advise

If you want to go to the Western side of the map, disband one of your core unit and buy a bridge engineers instead.
However, I'm not sure about the possibility to have the 500 bonus points as Germans. Since these points have existed, they have only been granted to the attacker side. Never to the defender.

[brianjones17]

I have a scoring question . My Russians took all victory hex's and the game ended declaring me the winner. My Germans hold all victory hex's and I have destroyed all Russians in the middle of the map and have 2 weak T34s left on the Eastern side of the map. I have also claimed the Russian spawn city and most flags center and right on the map. The remaining Russian units are stranded on the Western side of the map with no Bridge engineers left. So my question is how do I achieve a German victory and claim the 500 bonus points. the game is at turn 11 . thanks for any advise

If you want to go to the Western side of the map, disband one of your core unit and buy a bridge engineers instead.
However, I'm not sure about the possibility to have the 500 bonus points as Germans. Since these points have existed, they have only been granted to the attacker side. Never to the defender.

Thanks for the tips I have done just that and have crossed the river to the west. I understand your point regarding the 500 bonus point for the attacker but in the pre game instructions it does say " In case of an early victory the Germans will get full points for the remaining turns" .

[bendtheknee]

to start i want to thank the devs for this new map and the improvements made to the rating system and brifieng.
A few remarks to try to get things done.
- 5th card with an attack / defense design, the whole tournament will be played with this style of card ? a random map ffa style design being considered?
- the weather forecast on the last 3 maps was a determining factor, however the random aspect created inequalities, let me explain: I consider that the first 4-5 laps are decisive. I happened to pass them attacking with snow / rain and defending without snow / rain. This has happened to me twice, once in my favor and once against me. would it be possible to make each round (attack / defense) have the same weather?

[songseeker]

I RESIGN - OOPS, I CANNOT

The changes that Slitherine made after the 3rd round addressed most of the problems with the tournament, but not all. The glaring omission, or so I thought, was the problem of players who ceased to play, and the loss of points that their frustrated opponents were unable to earn as a result. But, I was wrong. The most important issue which remains to be fixed is the lack of an ability to surrender when the position is hopeless. Let me explain.

During the first round I and my opponent fought a pretty equal game on both sides. We both finished early, about round 11, thus missing out on many points. But, I thoroughly enjoyed the game and I think my opponent did also.

In round 2, now understanding much more of how a multiplayer game works, especially the ability to change the starting forces and position, I pretty much obliterated my opponent. By turn 8, as the German I had destroyed all his units and was sitting outside the last victory hex. As the Allies, I had destroyed all but a few of the German forces and was about to recover the last victory hex. I was enjoying this immensely. Unfortunately, my opponent was not and he stopped playing at that point. In fact, it appears it was such an unpleasant experience for him that he has never returned to fight in any subsequent round. I can understand this. When the situation is hopeless, its hard to muster the enthusiasm to continue.

In round 3 I was handed my ass in the most expert deconstruction of my forces. I thought I was a decent player but my opponent tore me apart. As the Germans he was able to take all the Moscow victory hexes by turn 10 and I was never able to take a single one as the Germans. For me it was a tremendous learning experience, but after round 8, when the result became obvious, it was most unpleasant. I really had to motivate myself each day to log on and fight such a losing position. The onslaught was relentless and I did not enjoy the last half at all. I thought about just ceasing to play, but I did not want to go the route of people that I had criticized and I played to the bitter end out of a sort of duty. But it was not fun. The 2 redeeming features were the lessons I leaned, and the fact that my opponent revealed that he had finished in the top 5 in the previous 2 annual tournaments. I can understand why after seeing how he played.

In round 4 I more or less destroyed my opponent and by round 11 was close to victory on both sides. My opponent was not having any fun by this point and he ceased to play. He has not returned for round 5.

In the current round, as the Russians I have claimed victory by round 10, and it is clear my opponent will not take any more than 1 victory hex as the Russians by game end. I have to salute my opponent for continuing to play when it became obvious from an early stage what the result would be. I feared that he would just melt away as previous opponents had, as it could not have been any fun at all from round 7.

So, the point to take from all this is: for most, if not all, players, the fun stops when the position is seen to be hopeless. It takes a huge commitment and resolve to continue when faced with having to log on each time to lose yet more forces and hexes, and make no positive progress at all. It not only stops that game from being enjoyable, but the experience drives players away from the tournament altogether. The solution is so easy: introduce the ability to surrender when the position becomes hopeless. This would stop players having to motivate themselves go through rounds of unpleasant moves for no purpose other than a sense of duty. Of course, there would be a few issues with how to score the game from the point of surrender, but these are really trivial to determine and also to programme.

So, for what it's worth, in my view the most serious problem with the tournament is the lack of a surrender button.

[tkrysiak]

I RESIGN - OOPS, I CANNOT

The changes that Slitherine made after the 3rd round addressed most of the problems with the tournament, but not all. The glaring omission, or so I thought, was the problem of players who ceased to play, and the loss of points that their frustrated opponents were unable to earn as a result. But, I was wrong. The most important issue which remains to be fixed is the lack of an ability to surrender when the position is hopeless. Let me explain.

During the first round I and my opponent fought a pretty equal game on both sides. We both finished early, about round 11, thus missing out on many points. But, I thoroughly enjoyed the game and I think my opponent did also.

In round 2, now understanding much more of how a multiplayer game works, especially the ability to change the starting forces and position, I pretty much obliterated my opponent. By turn 8, as the German I had destroyed all his units and was sitting outside the last victory hex. As the Allies, I had destroyed all but a few of the German forces and was about to recover the last victory hex. I was enjoying this immensely. Unfortunately, my opponent was not and he stopped playing at that point. In fact, it appears it was such an unpleasant experience for him that he has never returned to fight in any subsequent round. I can understand this. When the situation is hopeless, its hard to muster the enthusiasm to continue.

In round 3 I was handed my ass in the most expert deconstruction of my forces. I thought I was a decent player but my opponent tore me apart. As the Germans he was able to take all the Moscow victory hexes by turn 10 and I was never able to take a single one as the Germans. For me it was a tremendous learning experience, but after round 8, when the result became obvious, it was most unpleasant. I really had to motivate myself each day to log on and fight such a losing position. The onslaught was relentless and I did not enjoy the last half at all. I thought about just ceasing to play, but I did not want to go the route of people that I had criticized and I played to the bitter end out of a sort of duty. But it was not fun. The 2 redeeming features were the lessons I leaned, and the fact that my opponent revealed that he had finished in the top 5 in the previous 2 annual tournaments. I can understand why after seeing how he played.

In round 4 I more or less destroyed my opponent and by round 11 was close to victory on both sides. My opponent was not having any fun by this point and he ceased to play. He has not returned for round 5.

In the current round, as the Russians I have claimed victory by round 10, and it is clear my opponent will not take any more than 1 victory hex as the Russians by game end. I have to salute my opponent for continuing to play when it became obvious from an early stage what the result would be. I feared that he would just melt away as previous opponents had, as it could not have been any fun at all from round 7.

So, the point to take from all this is: for most, if not all, players, the fun stops when the position is seen to be hopeless. It takes a huge commitment and resolve to continue when faced with having to log on each time to lose yet more forces and hexes, and make no positive progress at all. It not only stops that game from being enjoyable, but the experience drives players away from the tournament altogether. The solution is so easy: introduce the ability to surrender when the position becomes hopeless. This would stop players having to motivate themselves go through rounds of unpleasant moves for no purpose other than a sense of duty. Of course, there would be a few issues with how to score the game from the point of surrender, but these are really trivial to determine and also to programme.

So, for what it's worth, in my view the most serious problem with the tournament is the lack of a surrender button.

Yeah if my current game is also unfinished I feel like resigning is a better option. Sorry Slitherine but scoring rules are a clusterfuck in how you give points to some not the others. There should be a much clearer ruleset post as a sticky - with all the updates you make mid tournament (which is also a band aid of a solution)
It is just not worth going to vent on the forums for one full year straight about how I didn't get points or or someone didn't get to play his round or how opponent didn't play but I didn't get points etc.
All that is only detrimental to ones mental health - if you can't organize a tournament with clear rules visible to all then maybe just don't...
/salt off

[brianjones17]

I RESIGN - OOPS, I CANNOT

The changes that Slitherine made after the 3rd round addressed most of the problems with the tournament, but not all. The glaring omission, or so I thought, was the problem of players who ceased to play, and the loss of points that their frustrated opponents were unable to earn as a result. But, I was wrong. The most important issue which remains to be fixed is the lack of an ability to surrender when the position is hopeless. Let me explain.

During the first round I and my opponent fought a pretty equal game on both sides. We both finished early, about round 11, thus missing out on many points. But, I thoroughly enjoyed the game and I think my opponent did also.

In round 2, now understanding much more of how a multiplayer game works, especially the ability to change the starting forces and position, I pretty much obliterated my opponent. By turn 8, as the German I had destroyed all his units and was sitting outside the last victory hex. As the Allies, I had destroyed all but a few of the German forces and was about to recover the last victory hex. I was enjoying this immensely. Unfortunately, my opponent was not and he stopped playing at that point. In fact, it appears it was such an unpleasant experience for him that he has never returned to fight in any subsequent round. I can understand this. When the situation is hopeless, its hard to muster the enthusiasm to continue.

In round 3 I was handed my ass in the most expert deconstruction of my forces. I thought I was a decent player but my opponent tore me apart. As the Germans he was able to take all the Moscow victory hexes by turn 10 and I was never able to take a single one as the Germans. For me it was a tremendous learning experience, but after round 8, when the result became obvious, it was most unpleasant. I really had to motivate myself each day to log on and fight such a losing position. The onslaught was relentless and I did not enjoy the last half at all. I thought about just ceasing to play, but I did not want to go the route of people that I had criticized and I played to the bitter end out of a sort of duty. But it was not fun. The 2 redeeming features were the lessons I leaned, and the fact that my opponent revealed that he had finished in the top 5 in the previous 2 annual tournaments. I can understand why after seeing how he played.

In round 4 I more or less destroyed my opponent and by round 11 was close to victory on both sides. My opponent was not having any fun by this point and he ceased to play. He has not returned for round 5.

In the current round, as the Russians I have claimed victory by round 10, and it is clear my opponent will not take any more than 1 victory hex as the Russians by game end. I have to salute my opponent for continuing to play when it became obvious from an early stage what the result would be. I feared that he would just melt away as previous opponents had, as it could not have been any fun at all from round 7.

So, the point to take from all this is: for most, if not all, players, the fun stops when the position is seen to be hopeless. It takes a huge commitment and resolve to continue when faced with having to log on each time to lose yet more forces and hexes, and make no positive progress at all. It not only stops that game from being enjoyable, but the experience drives players away from the tournament altogether. The solution is so easy: introduce the ability to surrender when the position becomes hopeless. This would stop players having to motivate themselves go through rounds of unpleasant moves for no purpose other than a sense of duty. Of course, there would be a few issues with how to score the game from the point of surrender, but these are really trivial to determine and also to programme.

So, for what it's worth, in my view the most serious problem with the tournament is the lack of a surrender button.

You make some good points regarding improving tournament play when players give up and stop playing. I was your opponent in the first round and thank you for the close game I think its what most players want to win a good close game. I have been fortunate to have mostly good close games that played out to the end except for one round " Moscow" where I was soundly beaten and yes it was hard towards the end to keep playing knowing you where defeated but I do get some enjoyment in trying to save desperate loosing games. Any way if there was a surrender button option that might be a fairer solution to players that have opponents that stop playing and denying them there rightful points. I think this could only be an improvement to this tournament and the game we all enjoy playing.

[rexhurley]

I concur with the previous post I am in now in the fifth the third of which i will be unable to complete and score well only because my opponent has given up yet he is not punished in anyway yet in fact will actually win one of the two matches as he still holds the key points as the German, farcical.

[tkrysiak]

I concur with the previous post I am in now in the fifth the third of which i will be unable to complete and score well only because my opponent has given up yet he is not punished in anyway yet in fact will actually win one of the two matches as he still holds the key points as the German, farcical.

Yup, pretty much that...
+1

[nutoha]

Heads up guys, this kind of players are getting fewer. They dont want to learn(hard way which is fastest but painfull) and have the false expectations for enjoyment and(or) possibilities to beat another human after completing the campaign on default difficulty(they can beat only players like themselves). I have checked the last 2 tournaments results, and the conclusion is that from the 6 rounds combined I had only 1 finished game. Such players also loose interest in game cause no one enters theirs regular games and even if they join mine I surrender.
Rex learned some things hard way, and will in future, but this is how you get better and enjoy the game more and more - Thank you Rex!

[AntoineBertschy]

Bonjour,
Hier soir, j'ai eu un message d'erreur juste après ma victoire au tour 13 avec les russes et la partie apparaît dorénavant comme finie. Cependant, au niveau des scores les quelques 800 points que j'ai gagné n'ont pas été comptabilisés. Est-ce normal ? Est-ce possible de le corriger ?
Merci aux organisateurs, même s'il me faut des heures pour m'endormir car je penses aux coups à jouer le lendemain !
J'ai suivi un peu les conversations (je comprend mal l'anglais) et je pense que le système de points avec les 500 de victoire donne du piment au tournoi : il est maintenant possible de faire de belles "remontada" au classement.
Enfin, une question "technique" : comment fait-on pour switcher 2 unités ?
Merci
---English---
Hello,
Last night, I got an error message just after winning turn 13 with the Russians and the game now appears to be over. However, in terms of scores, the 800 points I earned were not counted. Is this normal? Is it possible to fix it?
Thanks to the organizers, even if it takes me hours to fall asleep because I'm thinking about the moves to play the next day!
I followed the conversations a bit (I don't understand English well) and I think that the point system with the 500 wins gives spice to the tournament: it is now possible to make good "remontada" in the standings.
Finally, a "technical" question: how do you switch 2 units?
Thank you

[Trepko]

Bonjour,
Hier soir, j'ai eu un message d'erreur juste après ma victoire au tour 13 avec les russes et la partie apparaît dorénavant comme finie. Cependant, au niveau des scores les quelques 800 points que j'ai gagné n'ont pas été comptabilisés. Est-ce normal ? Est-ce possible de le corriger ?
Merci aux organisateurs, même s'il me faut des heures pour m'endormir car je penses aux coups à jouer le lendemain !
J'ai suivi un peu les conversations (je comprend mal l'anglais) et je pense que le système de points avec les 500 de victoire donne du piment au tournoi : il est maintenant possible de faire de belles "remontada" au classement.
Enfin, une question "technique" : comment fait-on pour switcher 2 unités ?
Merci
---English---
Hello,
Last night, I got an error message just after winning turn 13 with the Russians and the game now appears to be over. However, in terms of scores, the 800 points I earned were not counted. Is this normal? Is it possible to fix it?
Thanks to the organizers, even if it takes me hours to fall asleep because I'm thinking about the moves to play the next day!
I followed the conversations a bit (I don't understand English well) and I think that the point system with the 500 wins gives spice to the tournament: it is now possible to make good "remontada" in the standings.
Finally, a "technical" question: how do you switch 2 units?
Thank you

Pour switcher 2 unités, tu sélectionnes la première, puis tu maintiens la touche shift appuyée et tu clickes (gauche) sur la 2e unité. Ca ne fonctionne que sur des unités côte à côte (pas de switch sur des unités à plusieurs cases d'écart), et il faut bien sûr que les 2 unités puissent effectuer le mouvement (terrain compatible et suffisamment de points de mouvement).

Pour ta victoire/tes points, je pense que le message d'erreur juste après ta victoire a provoqué un mauvais envoi des données vers les serveurs, et donc une mauvaise comptabilisation des points. Apparemment c'est déjà arrivé à d'autres. Je ne sais pas si les organisateurs souhaitent (ou tout simplement peuvent) rectifier le tir...
Par contre, je suis (un peu) étonné: tu avais donc 215 points côté Russe à la fin du tour 12, et tu as réussi à gagner au tour 13 ? Tu as pris tous les hexagones de victoires en 1 tour ?

[a432]

Hey everyone

DO NOT PRESS:

Review Battlefield

Currently this button is not working, and causes an error that removes your victory score! Please don't press it. It has already happened to 8 people in the tournament just this round!


The "Review Battlefield' button is broken or glitched. After you press review battlefield you cannot proper end the battle, and instead receive this loop error. "Uploading the game" Request Failed Challenge already finished instance already finished. You have to alt-f4 to close the game, no other method will work.

For the error:

https://youtu.be/__SBWxc7Q5s?t=1971

Would it be possible if they can take a look at the panzer corps 2 servers and logs to fix or complete this loop?

Thanks!

[AntoineBertschy]

Merci de vos réponses. Je ne sais pas si j'ai appuyé sur ce bouton mais c'est en tout cas trop tard !
Thanx for your answers. I don't no if I pushed this button, but it's too late !
@Trepko : merci pour l'astuce. En ce qui concerne ta question, mon adversaire m'a causé mille tourments jusqu'au tour 8. L'arrivée du beau temps m'a permis de mettre (enfin) mon aviation en action contre son artillerie. Je lui ai pris un hexagone au tour 11, un au 12 et les 3 derniers au 13.

[royalcid]

En ce qui concerne ta question, mon adversaire m'a causé mille tourments jusqu'au tour 8. L'arrivée du beau temps m'a permis de mettre (enfin) mon aviation en action contre son artillerie. Je lui ai pris un hexagone au tour 11, un au 12 et les 3 derniers au 13.

L'arrivée du beau temps... losing this was really frustrating. But I guess my bet to go without any AA with the germans during the whole battle was a bit over the top
But thank you for the nice fight!

Despite of the problems with scoring etc. I really enjoy the tournament with good players and new maps and challenges that can't be trained beforehand.
The campaign never thrilled me like this.

[tkrysiak]

And yet another bug, early win round 9. Clicked continue, an error appeared and no points assigned for the game nor the 500 point bonus. Could not go back or forward had to alt-f4 the game.

@Slitherine - it's getting really hard to stick around guys...can anything be done?



Edit: Last tournament I fell off the podium because of "accidental" early win and no point bonus - my bad. This time around stuff was supposed to be regulated and "fixed"...
Really salty right now, I do wanna play but it is been either unfinished games or bugs past few rounds...