Panzer Corps 2 Axis Operations - 1944 Dev Diary #2

[adiekmann]

We wanted to try to define what it meant for Germany to have ‘lost the initiative on the Eastern Front’, which means there are a lot of reactionary battles you will have to fight. This means that you will often find you and the forces under your command are thrust into situations not of your own making. For example, you might be called up as reinforcements for a battle already in progress. And your arrival might not be one of conquest, but of attempting to defend vital river crossings, or protecting friendly forces that are already on the edge of collapse.

Especially to make the historical part more enjoable you could create some negative traits for german tanks. Its ridiculous that the russians could even hurt my tiger II or jadgtiger prototype in 1943/1944. Would be better to lose some units by technical defects or you simply cant supply all of them. But that would change the whole game mechanics, so never mind.

Remember, Soviet tanks that become available in '44 are about the equal to Tigers and Panthers, and in some ways superior. Your clear tank superiority will end. However, with an imported core stacked with powerful heroes that will be your advantage. Plus, don't expect any of the AI's units to be less than 4 stars of experience any longer. You see that already in AO43. So something as dramatic as you are suggesting is unnecessary. There's simpler ways of getting what you want like trying some of the multitude of challenge options.

[BaronVonWalrus]

Plus, don't expect any of the AI's units to be less than 4 stars of experience any longer. You see that already in AO43. So something as dramatic as you are suggesting is unnecessary. There's simpler ways of getting what you want like trying some of the multitude of challenge options.
[/quote]

I hope that actually isn't the case, as the Red Army was not stacked to overflowing with uber-veteran elite units. When the Guards units turn up with 5 stars, the newest equipment, overstrengthed and with heroes then we should be duly afraid.....but the "average" units?

Quantity has its own quality.

[adiekmann]

Plus, don't expect any of the AI's units to be less than 4 stars of experience any longer. You see that already in AO43. So something as dramatic as you are suggesting is unnecessary. There's simpler ways of getting what you want like trying some of the multitude of challenge options.

I hope that actually isn't the case, as the Red Army was not stacked to overflowing with uber-veteran elite units. When the Guards units turn up with 5 stars, the newest equipment, overstrengthed and with heroes then we should be duly afraid.....but the "average" units?

Quantity has its own quality.
[/quote]

A 4-star unit is not uber-elite. I just meant they won't be 0-3 stars only any longer. So your stud Tiger I or Panther A is no longer overrunning 2-star T-34/42s and 43s until it's out of ammo. Many will be KV1-85s, which are roughly the equivalent to a Tiger I, and T-34/85s which rival Panthers, and don't forget IS-1s and 2s. Throw in the fact that they aren't 0-2 stars anymore, and you got yourself a fight on your hand.

[UncleAi]

In history Soviet put veterans in the technical troops (like artillerymen, signalmen etc.). And gain infantryman from newly recaptured territory. Use them to save elite troops. There should be some low exp infantry on the first line then veterans on second line.

[barhaos]

Hello, i am just about to finish the axis operations 1943. Kremenchug scenario. Russians stop attacking after turn 6 or 7. I just pick them one by one like sitting ducks. The Russian air force is inert, just sending one plane at a time. Is this a bug, has anyone experienced this??

[barhaos]

Hello, i am just about to finish the axis operations 1943. Kremenchug scenario. Russians stop attacking after turn 6 or 7. I just pick them one by one like sitting ducks. The Russian air force is inert, just sending one plane at a time. Is this a bug, has anyone experienced this??

[Bee1976]

I hope that actually isn't the case, as the Red Army was not stacked to overflowing with uber-veteran elite units. When the Guards units turn up with 5 stars, the newest equipment, overstrengthed and with heroes then we should be duly afraid.....but the "average" units?

Quantity has its own quality.

Well historically correct, i mean some british historican labeled the soviet losses during wwII with 84%. 84% of all regular soldiers and conscripted troops wer wounded, killed or missed. (if that historican is correct). So there was little room for "getting veteran status". So from a historical view, there should be a lot of unexperienced units to fight against.

Buuuuuuut this is a game. And the experience is used mechanicwise to determine the difficulty of missions and scenarios. The experience mechanic has great impact on the dmg a unit can do and the damage the unit will take per attack.
So if the enemy is hostircal correct with 0 or real low epxerience on most troops this will end up in a big boring massacre.

And remember even on the histrocial path, outside of some special houserules, our core force is not historical correct aswell. So im pretty sure adiekmann is right, we will face mostly high-star units in 44+. But to be honest i would love a complete revamp of the experience system beyond "1-5 stars".
So the "Star-system" could stay to determine accuracy (and game difficulty mechanicwise), but to determine verteran status and real elite units medals are a better way.
I mean, when i recieve the 2nd azul infantry i send them to the next training mission available, and after that, they are nearly on the same "experience lvl" than the azul i recievd first, but the first azul i a real veteran unit that saw a lot of action, the new azuls not.
Both would be labelled "veteran" units by the amount of stars.

May one simple mechanic to get "promotion" points during the AO series to promote single units to "real veteran status" with some benefits would be something nice.
I mean, im the general, but im not allowed to promote any1.

[VirgilInTheSKY]

And remember even on the histrocial path, outside of some special houserules, our core force is not historical correct aswell. So im pretty sure adiekmann is right, we will face mostly high-star units in 44+. But to be honest i would love a complete revamp of the experience system beyond "1-5 stars".
So the "Star-system" could stay to determine accuracy (and game difficulty mechanicwise), but to determine verteran status and real elite units medals are a better way.
I mean, when i recieve the 2nd azul infantry i send them to the next training mission available, and after that, they are nearly on the same "experience lvl" than the azul i recievd first, but the first azul i a real veteran unit that saw a lot of action, the new azuls not.
Both would be labelled "veteran" units by the amount of stars.

May one simple mechanic to get "promotion" points during the AO series to promote single units to "real veteran status" with some benefits would be something nice.
I mean, im the general, but im not allowed to promote any1.

For player units I generally tend to only take medals into consideration when telling if a unit is "veteran" or not, as those can only be earned from real combat. I guess there is not a way (or just too complicated to use at the moment) to set medals for units yet?

[DefiantXYX]

Buuuuuuut this is a game. And the experience is used mechanicwise to determine the difficulty of missions and scenarios. The experience mechanic has great impact on the dmg a unit can do and the damage the unit will take per attack.
So if the enemy is hostircal correct with 0 or real low epxerience on most troops this will end up in a big boring massacre.

The mechanics would work in that case. Russian units should always be between 0 - 2 stars experience, but should always be overstrengthed or simply double their core slots. The real problem is once again the gap between really good players and standard players. Or between overpowered hero-cores and green armys. Its hard to balance.
There could be a lot of option during the years of war. To make it more realistic and interesting germans should not be able to get elite replacements all the time. There are no elite replacements in >1943.

May one simple mechanic to get "promotion" points during the AO series to promote single units to "real veteran status" with some benefits would be something nice.
I mean, im the general, but im not allowed to promote any1.

You cant promote but you have the heroes. Its like a promotion.

[Bee1976]

The problem is, if you double the core slots of weak enemy units or simply OS weak units, its nothing else like "doubling the amount of prey".

but if you move a kv-85 from 1 star to five stars, it becomes a real threat in a normal mission. And if you OS this to 15 its nearly impossible to steamroll it. but you can easily steamroll 5 kv-85 with 1 star in a row star without using an "uber unit".

[adiekmann]

Ever wonder if there should be such a thing as "elite replacements?" In reality, replacement troops were always "green" with the exception of the occasional tranfers from other units, but mixed with the veterans. I remember reading somewhere (Band of Brothers?) that the Germans (and probably other major nations too) always like to build even new formations around a core of veterans for their experience would help the newbies. Furthermore, veteran troops somehow also seemed to "know" how to survive combat. Often it was the green replacement troops that actually got killed. In other words, losses weren't always evenly distributed among soldiers of a given unit.

You could have some sort of system were cost in terms of prestige was every low, but there were no such thing as elite replacements. Then you could model the enemy's units in a more realistic fashion too, but this whole idea would ultimately require a complete rework and rethinking of the entire game. Only then would all the issues with this idea really come to the surface, so I don't know how feasible it really would be in terms of gameplay, since it is not a historical documentary but a game.

[Sequester Grundleplith, MD]

Ever wonder if there should be such a thing as "elite replacements?" In reality, replacement troops were always "green" with the exception of the occasional tranfers from other units, but mixed with the veterans. I remember reading somewhere (Band of Brothers?) that the Germans (and probably other major nations too) always like to build even new formations around a core of veterans for their experience would help the newbies. Furthermore, veteran troops somehow also seemed to "know" how to survive combat. Often it was the green replacement troops that actually got killed. In other words, losses weren't always evenly distributed among soldiers of a given unit.

You could have some sort of system were cost in terms of prestige was every low, but there were no such thing as elite replacements. Then you could model the enemy's units in a more realistic fashion too, but this whole idea would ultimately require a complete rework and rethinking of the entire game. Only then would all the issues with this idea really come to the surface, so I don't know how feasible it really would be in terms of gameplay, since it is not a historical documentary but a game.

One "fix" that wouldn't require a complete rework would be an option to limit elite replacements to 1-2 hp per turn. This would simulate small numbers of replacements not bringing down the overall veterancy of the unit. But if your unit gets absolutely smashed, as a couple of my planes have in '44, you either have to slowly reinforce the unit over 6-8 turns or take a big exp hit to quickly get it back to full strength

[adiekmann]

Ever wonder if there should be such a thing as "elite replacements?" In reality, replacement troops were always "green" with the exception of the occasional tranfers from other units, but mixed with the veterans. I remember reading somewhere (Band of Brothers?) that the Germans (and probably other major nations too) always like to build even new formations around a core of veterans for their experience would help the newbies. Furthermore, veteran troops somehow also seemed to "know" how to survive combat. Often it was the green replacement troops that actually got killed. In other words, losses weren't always evenly distributed among soldiers of a given unit.

You could have some sort of system were cost in terms of prestige was every low, but there were no such thing as elite replacements. Then you could model the enemy's units in a more realistic fashion too, but this whole idea would ultimately require a complete rework and rethinking of the entire game. Only then would all the issues with this idea really come to the surface, so I don't know how feasible it really would be in terms of gameplay, since it is not a historical documentary but a game.

One "fix" that wouldn't require a complete rework would be an option to limit elite replacements to 1-2 hp per turn. This would simulate small numbers of replacements not bringing down the overall veterancy of the unit. But if your unit gets absolutely smashed, as a couple of my planes have in '44, you either have to slowly reinforce the unit over 6-8 turns or take a big exp hit to quickly get it back to full strength

This is an interesting idea. Made me think of taking it one step further where you could combine different units together and their experience combine too. For example, two 3-star, 5 strength infantry units could merge to form a 10 strength 3-star unit. This idea would also automatically force a player to be more conservative with his engagements. It would be difficult maybe to grow a true "elite veteran" unit of 4-5 stars, but at the same time it would be a monster that wouldn't take many losses if the AI's units follow this same more historical approach and remained mostly around 2-star exp even late war. Probably would need a rework with how quickly units gain experience too with no caps along the way.

[barhaos]

Hey there, any news on future releases?