Druzhina

[Scartabelli]

Hello,

I have a little question regarding the Slavic Druzhinas that I imagine will be present in Rus, Polish, and Bohemian/Czech army lists.

Considering the Druzhinas had a more professional character than feudal levies/knights I begin to wonder. Will it be somehow represented in the game? I imagine that it can not be represented by the difference in quality seeing how knights/lancers are already superior and making Druzhina highly superior is a bit too much.

Could it be at least represented by making dismounted Druzhina drilled or maneuverable?

[rbodleyscott]

Hello,

I have a little question regarding the Slavic Druzhinas that I imagine will be present in Rus, Polish, and Bohemian/Czech army lists.

Considering the Druzhinas had a more professional character than feudal levies/knights I begin to wonder. Will it be somehow represented in the game? I imagine that it can not be represented by the difference in quality seeing how knights/lancers are already superior and making Druzhina highly superior is a bit too much.

Could it be at least represented by making dismounted Druzhina drilled or maneuverable?

Nobody is getting Drilled infantry in the base game.

Mounted Druzhina will be a lot more manoeuvrable than Knights.

[Scartabelli]

Nobody is getting Drilled infantry in the base game.

Mounted Druzhina will be a lot more manoeuvrable than Knights.

Won't that be true for like... any cavalry in the game?

[rbodleyscott]

Nobody is getting Drilled infantry in the base game.

Mounted Druzhina will be a lot more manoeuvrable than Knights.

Won't that be true for like... any cavalry in the game?

Yes. But they are Superior, whereas there are many Average or Above Average cavalry in the game.

[Scartabelli]

Nobody is getting Drilled infantry in the base game.

Mounted Druzhina will be a lot more manoeuvrable than Knights.

Won't that be true for like... any cavalry in the game?

Yes. But they are Superior, whereas there are many Average or Above Average cavalry in the game.

Hmm, sounds fair, to be honest. Ok, consider my objections withdrawn.

[Veles]

One little question if I may: From what I saw so far Mounted Druzhina has Light Spear capability. Will, there be also a Lancers version of Druzhina available for Poles and Czechs? You know, to represent the shift to more Knightly/Western tactics?

[rbodleyscott]

One little question if I may: From what I saw so far Mounted Druzhina has Light Spear capability. Will, there be also a Lancers version of Druzhina available for Poles and Czechs? You know, to represent the shift to more Knightly/Western tactics?

The Poles will start to convert to western Knightly tactics from 1155, and the process is assumed to be complete by 1200.

Bohemia was part of the Holy Roman Empire from 1002 AD. We have assumed (perhaps erroneously) that they would have converted to Western knightly tactics by 1050. If you know otherwise, please let us know. Our sources don't make any distinction between German and Bohemian tactics in this period.

[Veles]

The Poles will start to convert to western Knightly tactics from 1155, and the process is assumed to be complete by 1200.

Does it mean Poles don't have any kind of lancers up to that time? If so then it might need a change.

From what we know from the sources like Gesta Principum Polonorum is that the Polish Druzhina was stationed around the country and divided into Clipeati which is nowadays interpreted as a lightly armored cavalry perhaps similar to German "Ministeriales", and Loricati which was heavy cavalry (for its time) that wasn't much different in term of equipment from its western counterpart. Judging from Gesta Principum Polonrum, Polish Kings and Dukes relied mostly on mounted Druzhina for raids into enemy territory.

Now, do the German list already have knightly lancers in 1050, or are they, regular lancers? If they are regular lancers then I would say the Armoured Druzhina should also have this capability.
That's how I would see this:
up to let's say 1140 the Polish list would have:
Armoured Druzhina: Superior, Armoured, Lancers, Swordsmen
Druzhina Superior, Protected, Light Spear, Swordsmen
both dismountable

The first true members of the Knightly class would appear in Duchy/Kingdom of Poland in the first half of the XII century and their importance would grow throughout the XII century (especially during the reign of Casimir the Just) So yeah, I would say that you're correct in this regard. Druzhinas would survive for some time into the XIII century as personal retinues of various Piast Dukes but those would become knightly retinues pretty quickly.

As for the Czechs. in 1050 Druzhina would still exist in form of large personal retinues/guards of members of the House of Přemyslid as well as various magnates but as far as I know, Czech Druzhina would be mostly gone by the end of XI century. I have to dust my edition of Chronica Boëmorum by Cosmas of Prague and look into it.

[rbodleyscott]

Now, do the German list already have knightly lancers in 1050, or are they, regular lancers?

They are knights.

[rbodleyscott]

We have already had one overhaul of the Polish lists during beta testing, and we don't plan to tweak them again before release. When you have seen how all of the armies are represented in the base game would be the time to propose tweaks for a future update.

Also, representing any druzhina as cavalry (non-knightly) lancers would be doing them no favours, as they would then be unable to evade and would get easily ridden down by knights. In their present representation as light spear cavalry they can evade and draw the enemy knights into an unfavourable position.

As I have said elsewhere, FOG2 is a top down design, not bottom up. Light Spear classification does not preclude the possession of lances, it is more to do with a propensity to use hit and run tactics rather than a death or glory charge. Our understanding is that Polish tactics were more "hit and run" than "death or glory" in the 11th and 12th centuries.

So best wait until you have access to the whole game, and can see how it all ties together.

[Veles]

Understood. Waiting for release then.

Also, representing any druzhina as cavalry (non-knightly) lancers would be doing them no favours, as they would then be unable to evade and would get easily ridden down by knights. In their present representation as light spear cavalry they can evade and draw the enemy knights into an unfavourable position.

This is precisely why I was asking if other lists start with Knightly lancers. In that case, yes. Light Spear makes more sense.

[telesien]

Bohemia was part of the Holy Roman Empire from 1002 AD. We have assumed (perhaps erroneously) that they would have converted to Western knightly tactics by 1050. If you know otherwise, please let us know. Our sources don't make any distinction between German and Bohemian tactics in this period.

I would say you are correct. Bohemian army was westernized very early