Draws in games

[HobbesACW]

Hi folks, just a thought to share. With FoG you either win or lose. Quite a few wargames offer a draw if the sides are fairly close. I miss this outcome with FoG. Mainly as my PBEM opponent Bill beats me in almost every game (I had a slightly better record against him in Pke & Shot). It would give the poorer player more chance of getting a reasonable outcome + a draw as the weaker player can feel like a victory. Also if playing and winning most games against the AI it would add a bit more of a challenge. Of course you could call a draw if you failed to get a certain % but that just doesn't feel right when a victory or defeat screen appears.

Some games allow for draws and some don't. I just wondered if people have any thoughts on this?

Chris

[cfeicht_slith]

I agree wholeheartedly. This is an excellent idea.

[w_michael]

In tournament play, I think that an incomplete game should be scored as a loss for both sides. If a game is incomplete then no one won. This would encourage aggressive, decisive play, and discourages terrain and corner sitting to wait out the clock. It is very frustrating in a tournament for you to be eliminated from contending for a tournament win because your opponent goes turtle figuring that a "draw" is better than a loss.

[SnuggleBunnies]

In tournament play, I think that an incomplete game should be scored as a loss for both sides. If a game is incomplete then no one won. This would encourage aggressive, decisive play, and discourages terrain and corner sitting to wait out the clock. It is very frustrating in a tournament for you to be eliminated from contending for a tournament win because your opponent goes turtle figuring that a "draw" is better than a loss.

That is how it is done in the Digital League, and I don't believe games where you don't inflict 40% +25 or over 60% count as wins in the Slitherine official tournament system.

I believe the game is hard coded so that it won't show it as a draw unless it's an exactly even score, but I go by league scoring and consider anything in which you didn't score +25% and at least 40% or force the enemy over 60% to be a draw.

[SimonLancaster]

Yes, in the Digital League there are quite a few draws. I played a tough game with Triarii recently in the league where the game ended 54-52 after 24 turns. A 2-2 draw according to the league rules.

[Ray552]

RBS addressed this in the second post of a thread I started in the FOG2 forum: "Both armies reach or go over 60% on the same turn?":

...What would happen if you both had 63% routing?: Because the game engine does not recognise the existence of draws, the scripts do have to assign a winner in the event of a tie. If the % losses are both 60% or higher and equal, side B wins.

Obviously that isn't very fair, but it doesn't happen very often. In a game using the automated Slitherine tournament system, the two players' scores would be close to identical anyway.

So it's hardcoded into the game engine, even with exactly identical scores 60% or higher.

[w_michael]

Yes, in the Digital League there are quite a few draws. I played a tough game with Triarii recently in the league where the game ended 54-52 after 24 turns. A 2-2 draw according to the league rules.

No one won, so I would treat that as a loss for both sides in a tournament. It sounds like a hard fought game, which we should all aspire to, but there was no clear victor. Thus a loss for both sides.

[SimonLancaster]

Yes, in the Digital League there are quite a few draws. I played a tough game with Triarii recently in the league where the game ended 54-52 after 24 turns. A 2-2 draw according to the league rules.

No one won, so I would treat that as a loss for both sides in a tournament. It sounds like a hard fought game, which we should all aspire to, but there was no clear victor. Thus a loss for both sides.

The rules try to encourage attacking play as if you inflict over 25% casualties then you get the 2 points if you don't get a clear win. This motivates players to stop sitting back as if they do then they will only end up with 0 points if the game ends 12-12 for example.

[HobbesACW]

Good points. I've not played a league game. I also agree that playing for a draw could encourage defensive play by the weaker player and make tournament games less interesting.
I played The Campaign Series for years and draws were possible in that game but I never felt when playing anyone that they sat back to try for a draw in non tournament games even if they were the weaker player.
I certainly didn't (any more than I normally do) - it just gave me some hope when playing somebody far better than me. It might be the sort of thing that works when playing multiple PBEM games against somebody you know well.
A game option to allow for draws if the % difference is within 10% or so. Options are normally a good thing.

Cheers,
Chris

[HobbesACW]

P.S. after giving this a bit more thought. The one victory I have managed against Bill would have probably been called a draw if we had a 10% option.
I would miss that rare victory.