Heavy Weapons....Huh! What are they good for?!?

[Blathergut]

So:

1. What are HW good for compared to Impact Foot?

2. Strengths? Weaknesses?

If given a choice of a 6-8 pak of superior unprotected MF HW or an 8-12 pak of Impact MF, which would you go with and why? Or identify certain troop types you'd most like to run the HWs against.

Dan T.

[DaiSho]

So:

1. What are HW good for compared to Impact Foot?

2. Strengths? Weaknesses?

If given a choice of a 6-8 pak of superior unprotected MF HW or an 8-12 pak of Impact MF, which would you go with and why? Or identify certain troop types you'd most like to run the HWs against.

Dan T.

Sorry, but I think your choices here are too limiting. I can't make a decision here because I don't know what the rest of the army is made up of.

For example, I think that the Superior/Armoured/Undrilled/-/Heavy Weapon/ Huscarls are (in general) better than the alternative of Superior/Armoured/Undrilled/-/Offensive Spearmen/ Huscarls. Why? Well, if for no other reason than they are probably even against the worst and +1POA against most.

Generally, I think Unprotected Heavy Weapon are pretty good value for money considering nobody counts as out-armouring them, but they have to be carefully protected and if the rest of your army can't do that then you may be in a world of hurt. I sometimes run Irish allies with my Vikings, but I have the rest of the Vikings to protect them vs shooting.

It's not as simple as 'which would you take'. It's an army combination issue (IMHO).

Ian

[lawrenceg]

So:

1. What are HW good for compared to Impact Foot?

2. Strengths? Weaknesses?

If given a choice of a 6-8 pak of superior unprotected MF HW or an 8-12 pak of Impact MF, which would you go with and why? Or identify certain troop types you'd most like to run the HWs against.

Dan T.

HW costs the same as impact foot sword, so the bigger unit (i.e. 12 IF Swd) looks like the better deal. If you are unprotected then the HW is effectively 1POA worse than impact foot in impact, and 1 or 2 POA better than swordsman in melee. This means they probably punch about 2 AP above their cost against close combat troops.

Also they are not shock troops, so need a CMT to charge disrupted. This makes the impact foot better value against shooty opponents.

[DaiSho]

Also they are not shock troops, so need a CMT to charge disrupted. This makes the impact foot better value against shooty opponents.

This is true, but sometimes I like the fact that troops aren't impact. I mean, you can force someone to charge you who may not really want to charge you... Manouvering them into position and pulling them out of a battle line etc etc. It's worked for me in the past.

Ian

[paulcummins]

or they can get shot to disrupted, fail the cmt to charge and then sit there looking silly while getting shot some more. Partiularly nasty for bastarnae.

HW are really good for beating up spear and pike, especially if you have better armour as well.

[Blathergut]

HW are really good for beating up spear and pike, especially if you have better armour as well.

this is what i had in mind...spears tend to negate roman legionary advantages with swords...one unit of Dacian allied HWs may just do the trick!

[deadtorius]

Guess I will have to get some Thracians to sit across from the Dacians, HW versus HW

[philqw78]

Guess I will have to get some Thracians to sit across from the Dacians, HW versus HW

Or just use Sk Sw, which negates the HW, so Romans are back on +.

[DaiSho]

Guess I will have to get some Thracians to sit across from the Dacians, HW versus HW

Or just use Sk Sw, which negates the HW, so Romans are back on +.

Except they cost twice as much!

Ian

[Dareun]

arent HW especially vulnerable against monted?
worse case we got MF HW against some kind of mounted, it s more than likely that they got butchered at impact, aren't they?
during the melee period they are to be be even with the lancers swordsman (well, if they survived the first round)

I guess it proves that the brit army with foot knight can work only if the lancer is already worn out by bows and /or hide behind FF

[DaiSho]

arent HW especially vulnerable against monted?

Well, the 'power' of a Heavy Weapon is in its ability to disregard armour. Given that most mounted troops are Armoured or better, that means that Heavy Weapon does indeed give an advantage, but as you say there is no POA in impact.

Ian

[Dareun]

i guess that s why you got some LF support bow in your huscarl third line

[DaiSho]

i guess that s why you got some LF support bow in your huscarl third line

No, I use the LF support as a means of getting more BG's of Huscarls... and it has the added benefit of giving some help against mounted.

With a minimum BG size of 6 and a maximum number of Huscarls of 18, you can see that you can only have 3 BG's, but if you reduce that to BG size of 4 (with rear support boosting it to 6) you get another BG.

Ian

[Dareun]

smart and pretty!
I just checked the rus army list right now, the bow are said to be support for spearman, i guess that it wont work for the druzhina even if classed as offensive spear... sigh... it would have been pretty usefull

[grahambriggs]

The main benefit of the HW guys is against armoured foot (or heavily armoured foot) as the IF/Sw types are usually only protected. For eaxmple against armoured light spear/Sword types the IF are up at impact and then down thereafter. So you need to get lucky to beat them. The HW guys are equal at impact and melee and will usually be cheaper than the enemy.

It also helps to have a mix. The unprotected HW guys can be shot down so put a big blob of IF at the end of the line. or use them to run down MF archers while the HW guys take on the tougher foot.

[expendablecinc]

smart and pretty!
I just checked the rus army list right now, the bow are said to be support for spearman, i guess that it wont work for the druzhina even if classed as offensive spear... sigh... it would have been pretty usefull

I had a game last week with my parthians vs free company.

I had 5 Bgs of Lh and 16 bases of cataphracts. I expected to get anihilatted by longbow but there were bgs of 6 HW superiors intersperced with the Longbow so targeted them with a frontal cataphract charge. If took a while but eventually they broke. The good thing is that although the cats are only up at impact if they dont get on the front foot they withdraw for another charge at the end of the turn.

anthony

[Blathergut]

Welllfirst time out the 6pak of Dacian Unpro Sup HW faired incredibly well, at one point simultaneously fighting: a BG of 2 elephants, a BG of 2 companions, and a BG of 6 arm Off spears...destroying the elephants, the companions, and beating down the off spears.

Woohhooo!!

No doubt next time they will disrupt at initial impact, lose a casualty, and break in the melee....but nice start

[deadtorius]

I can only hope your heavy weapons disrupt and break next time.
I think Blathergut should change the name of this thread..... I now have to add Dacians to enemies I hate

[JCgoose]

WotR armies can have a nasty mix of HW and LB units that work well together

[LambertSimnel]

WotR armies can have a nasty mix of HW and LB units that work well together

but it just seems wasteful to have so much armour on your can-opener wielders.