The AI is bloody awful

[knowyouronion]

Just got my hands on a shiny new copy of BA 2, started playing and discovered that holy hell the AI is atrocious.

Some things I noticed in my first couple of hours

-Unsupported armour in urban situations, actually scratch that unsupported armour all of the time. I've seen the AI consistently run its armour ahead of its infantry, get a tank knocked out, then watch it advance another tank into the same spot a turn later.

-Completely devoid of any logical strategy, the AI likes to put its mortar teams in direct view of my tanks and then refuses to retreat them once they come under fire.

-Lack of coordination, attacks comes in drips and drabs; the AI will do almost everything in half measures.

-Beating the AI doesn't require skill or any ingenuity. I'm no Rommel and quite literally after my first skirmish I never broke a sweat when dealing with the AI even when setting up scenarios where the AI has triple my force size.

If I hadn't bought this on Steam I would be asking for a refund, but it's Steam so fat chance of that happening....

[IronFist00]

One suggestion if you are doing Skirmish, play at Attack game where you are the attacker and the AI is the defender. I find it plays defense better than offense. Also have the AI play as '44 Soviet Mechanized and you play '43 German Panzer or Waffen-SS. They are historical matchups in the settings and the AI will have a qualitative advantage.

I find playing the missions co-op against the AI gives a more rewarding experience. The objectives/achievements are varied and more interesting than straight Skirmish and the AI seems to perform better in that type of game.

If none of the above helps you or suits your fancy, there is always PvP.

[knowyouronion]

One suggestion if you are doing Skirmish, play at Attack game where you are the attacker and the AI is the defender. I find it plays defense better than offense. Also have the AI play as '44 Soviet Mechanized and you play '43 German Panzer or Waffen-SS. They are historical matchups in the settings and the AI will have a qualitative advantage.

I find playing the missions co-op against the AI gives a more rewarding experience. The objectives/achievements are varied and more interesting than straight Skirmish and the AI seems to perform better in that type of game.

If none of the above helps you or suits your fancy, there is always PvP.

I'll certainly try those things, thanks!

I'm just a bit bummed that parts of the major selling point of the game are essentially auto-wins unless you suddenly suffer an emergency evacuation of brain.

[IronFist00]

Totally understandable. The good news is the AI can always be buffed in a patch as development time permits. I know Slitherine has an extensive list of things they want to fix and implement so hopefully buffing the AI is somewhere on it.

[pipfromslitherine]

We're always happy to improve things where issues arise. I would say though that give you are talking about supporting armour etc you are playing the game at the level of someone who 'knows' how to play the game well - that is, you may not be Rommel but perhaps you are on his staff... We obviously need to balance for the full gamut of players

That said, we can add better screening and caution with armour to the task list for sure.

Cheers

Pip

[knowyouronion]

We're always happy to improve things where issues arise. I would say though that give you are talking about supporting armour etc you are playing the game at the level of someone who 'knows' how to play the game well - that is, you may not be Rommel but perhaps you are on his staff... We obviously need to balance for the full gamut of players

That said, we can add better screening and caution with armour to the task list for sure.

Cheers

Pip

Thanks for the speedy reply, I'd like to dial back the frustration of my earlier post. I stand by my point that the AI could do with some improvements but I could have said it in a better way, I do genuinely like the game, something which perhaps didn't come across in my OP. I don't mean to belittle the work of the dev team, as AI must be mindnumbingly hard to get right. I'm glad that improving it is on your to do list.

The internet makes a tit of me it seems.

[sturmer25]

I want to second that I was expecting improved AI but in my opinion it seems much worse than BA1.

The potential of this a game INSANE. That said, the AI is very very poor and I cant remember a wargame I bought where out of the box I MASSACRED the AI in defense and attack. I dont just want to love this game I want my friends to. With great success I know even more resources can be poured on this great system... Re: AI, Commander Great War AI on hard mode... THAT is a challenge. Even Steel Panthers mods AI would crush this. Ive worked in the video game industry (EA WW2 Fighters..it was meh but the AI was bette That said I want it to get BA2 AI better and thus here is my feedback.


Observations:
1. Its been said, Armor suicides when it could hold back and decimate until greater threats emerge. Combine arms fail. Doesnt take obvious of pinned troops with supporting infantry. Especially in urban. I asked my 7 year old daughter to fight a russian defense scenario on normal. SHe won.
2. AI spends too much time targeting empty spaces even when no fire from it for some time. Might be nice if AI once all near known threats are decimated send in some infantry to check it out before deciding not to move or wasting its fire.
3. AI often seems confused on attacks and counterattacks and NEVER takes advantage of its initative.
4. AI often uses artilery and air support in non important battle locations. It will target even AAA far away from armor column when the armor column is a known spotted sitting duck.
5. The AI needs work and a ROMMEL or ZHUKOV mode to keep replayability high. When defending key locations DEFEND tenaciously. On the attack I want to feel tension as it breaks through my lines trying al I can to hold the line. The AI misses pretty much every obvious opportunity to exploit almost every sitatuation EXCEPT when you walk into multiple units where the destruction is expected.

If I had the money or AI programming expertise I would PAY (or do myself) to have the AI brought to its maximum potential because in my honest opintion this game is already so great, it would be the best WW2 tactical computer wargame system EVER MADE. Its like having a hit song and then having an unfinished mix and skipping mastering right now with the AI. Right now i think the AI is the only weak part of the game and everything else shines. But baed on this alone, my friends wont buy it and want to fight me.

Congratualtions on an amazing product, Slitherine is my fave wargame company reminding me of SSI of old... I want to help be amazing and now wishing I was part of the Beta.

[tmoj2000]

This game is simply great in Multi Player mode. If you have not tried it yet, you should

Playing the AI is simply training for your MP games..... And to be fair I don't know any game where the AI stands a chance against a savvy player (other of course than those games where the AI has a limitless supply of units).

[bumble410]

Reading this post and the replies scares me because I have trouble beating the AI in the scenarios I have played thus far, and it now makes me fear that I am a worse player than I thought. I did try two MP games and I got destroyed quickly in both games, so I have stayed away from them for now. I do love the game and I love BA1 also, and yes I do have some problems beating AI in that too. Can someone give me some kind of clues what I am missing or maybe doing wrong that I am struggling to find victories in these games. I do want to play MP games but when I do I would like to be at least somewhat competitive.

[sturmer25]

I'll get to playing real people for sure based on the recommendation, but some people like me often dont have time for gaming with a real person.

Last night the AI kind of surprised me in the Bagration Pocket on German Defense of city. It does ok sometimes on defense with the right forces (MGS vs troops)!!!!. But where it attacked in (East?)I decimated it from front and rear and even had an AT rifle chase down a fully op German halftrack across a big open field for 3 turns and kill it, when the halftrack could have easily sat back for the 3 turns it took and suppressed my AT. It could have exited the board or gotten a VP, but instead it waited to die.

I find using AT rifles and Tanks and playing peekaboo from stragetic locations is just death for AI. Roll out, fire, roll back. They often ignore this and get decimated picking less important targets or continuing to original (scenario editor specified objective im guessing).

Well I hope it improves, even minor fixes in a number of places could make it a fun single player game. I would say if the AI is giving you a good pounding, Im jealous.

I hope for fixes, and I wish there was an Expert AI or some advanced AI Options. Is there a way to edit the AI? Im sure there are parameters for tweaking, but Im guessing the AI strictly focuses on targets (attack to here), defend here and cannot autonomously change its "plans". ie all objective or trigger based.

---

Aside: Im an ol'e ASL'er. I sold my whole collection for about $2k a few years back and I was kind of bummed at the time but NO ONE has the time for that and Im glad I did. If they do,
then they must love math and calculations and rules with WAY too many exceptions that a computer could easily handle the work of. I rarely played solitaire (always vs real people) but with computers, solitaire wargaming will one day I think be more challenging than real people. I believe this because with the right resources and learning AIs, done right I think it should "steal" the best strategies for use in different situations that work well for it. When game companies leverage our data for AIs that can learn (many do for other reasons), i guarantee a "mean" as you want computer opponent is possible.

[IronFist00]

Here's some tips that might improve your play bumble:

http://www.slitherinebravo.net/GameWiki ... andtactics

USEFUL INFO, TIPS AND TACTICS

Junk2Drive's Awesome Manual Additions Thread

Basic Tactics

Here are some useful hints and tips to get you started.

Infantry and support weapons can hide in cover and can only be spotted by enemy infantry on an adjacent tile. The scout unit can see enemies hiding in cover from two tiles away so are very useful when trying to discover the locations of enemy units.
Loading & unloading a unit on a transport takes half a turn.
Support weapons cannot shoot in the turn they unload and cannot load if they have previously fired.
Certain units have bombardment weapons which take multiple turns to reload – e.g. the Panzerwerfer and the Sherman Calliope.
Infantry that come under fire while moving will immediately halt so be careful you do not get caught in the open.
Certain units, such as the M16 AA Half track or the MkIV AA tank, have anti-aircraft capabilities. Place these near your units to give them protection from low level fighter bombers.
When an enemy unit fires from ambush, you won’t see the actual position of the unit. The Ambush text appears near the unit’s position but not necessarily on the exact tile.
In some missions, visibility can be reduced by a sandstorm or darkness. Use your infantry and open topped vehicles longer sighting ranges to spot enemy units before your tanks become vulnerable to ambush.
Make good use of combined arms. Your tanks are blind in towns and forests without infantry support.
Suppressing an enemy is almost as good as killing them. As long as you keep a unit under fire it will not recover its morale, so focus on unsuppressed units as they are more of a threat.
It is tougher to attack than defend. Remember to attack where you have the advantage and defend where you are outnumbered.
Infantry should not always defend at the front of a village. Sometimes it can be best to pull back to avoid long range enemy fire from tanks and support weapons and draw them into constricted areas where they are more vulnerable to short range ambush.
Ingame Tips List

This is a list of all the tips shown on the ingame loading screens.

“Tip: Most tanks have strong frontal armour, weaker side armour and are vulnerable from the rear.”
“Tip: Infantry and artillery can hide in buildings, forests and rough terrain. They can only be seen by adjacent infantry or if they shoot.”
“Tip: Keep your infantry and artillery hidden by telling them to hold fire.”
“Tip: Troops on top of hills cannot be seen by those below unless they fire”
“Tip: Troops hiding in cover take reduced damage and are harder to suppress”
“Tip: When a unit's morale drops below 50 it is suppressed and will not return fire.”
“Tip: When a unit's morale drops below zero it will retreat or surrender to adjacent enemy troops.”
“Tip: Mortars and artillery can bombard targets they cannot see.”
“Tip: Use your mortars and artillery to suppress enemy infantry.”
“Tip: Large artillery pieces such as rocket launchers may need to reload over a number of turns before they can bombard again.”
“Tip: As units fight they gain experience. Elite units can gain new skills.”
“Tip: While using a bombardment hold down the shift key to show the area of effect.”
“Tip: Play multiplayer against anyone in the world in any timezone using Slitherine’s revolutionary PBEM server. It’s so simple you have to try it to believe it!”
“Tip: Scouts can see hidden enemy units 2 tiles away. Protect these units as without them you are blind.”
“Tip: Units in heavy bunkers will not surrender, so must be assaulted to remove them.”
“Tip: Infantry can assault adjacent tanks with explosives and grenades, called AT charges.”
“Tip: The number of AT charges a unit has is shown by the sticks of dynamite on the unit bar”
“Tip: Airstrikes and artillery barrages must be targeted in advance. They are very powerful but inaccurate so be sure to keep your troops out of the area.”
“Tip: Flamethrowers are excellent at destroying fortifications, but have very short range.”
“Tip: Machineguns are excellent at suppressing infantry but have no defence against armoured units.”
“Tip: Bazookas, Piats and Panzershrecks fire explosive rounds, designed to take out enemy tanks at short range.”
“Tip: Always try to get flank and rear shots on enemy armour for best results”
“Tip: Units that are stationary or hunting are much more accurate than those moving fast.”
“Tip: Before some battles you may be able to deploy your troops. Position troops with good fields of fire and with good retreat paths.”
“Tip: Tanks can use their overrun attack against infantry in the open to devastate them, but risk being destroyed when they do.”
“Tip: Suppression fire can be used to target terrain you suspect holds enemy troops and with enough fire power will make them keep their heads down.”
“Tip: All units react to enemy units in the opponents turn. Take this into account when advancing on the enemy and when planning your defence.”
“Tip: Any shots not used in your turn are saved to be used in your opponents turn.”
“Tip: Remember to turn your tanks to face the enemy threat”
“Tip: Units are better at reacting to units ahead of them. Sneak up on enemy tanks by coming from their side or rear.”
“Tip: Infantry can move through wrecks but vehicles can’t. Wrecked vehicles can be bulldozed out the way to clear a path.”
“Tip: Use trucks and halftracks to transport infantry and artillery around. Artillery units cannot move without transport.”
“Tip: Keep Anti Aircraft guns (AA) nearby to protect from enemy airstrikes.”
“Tip: Light and Heavy fortifications reduce bombard damage by 50 and 75 % respectively. Heavy fortifications also makes it harder to become suppressed by adding a morale reduction by 50% and units in these will never surrender. That's on top of their cover bonus values.”

[pipfromslitherine]

I'll get to playing real people for sure based on the recommendation, but some people like me often dont have time for gaming with a real person.

Last night the AI kind of surprised me in the Bagration Pocket on German Defense of city. It does ok sometimes on defense with the right forces (MGS vs troops)!!!!. But where it attacked in (East?)I decimated it from front and rear and even had an AT rifle chase down a fully op German halftrack across a big open field for 3 turns and kill it, when the halftrack could have easily sat back for the 3 turns it took and suppressed my AT. It could have exited the board or gotten a VP, but instead it waited to die.

I find using AT rifles and Tanks and playing peekaboo from stragetic locations is just death for AI. Roll out, fire, roll back. They often ignore this and get decimated picking less important targets or continuing to original (scenario editor specified objective im guessing).

Well I hope it improves, even minor fixes in a number of places could make it a fun single player game. I would say if the AI is giving you a good pounding, Im jealous.

I hope for fixes, and I wish there was an Expert AI or some advanced AI Options. Is there a way to edit the AI? Im sure there are parameters for tweaking, but Im guessing the AI strictly focuses on targets (attack to here), defend here and cannot autonomously change its "plans". ie all objective or trigger based.

---

Aside: Im an ol'e ASL'er. I sold my whole collection for about $2k a few years back and I was kind of bummed at the time but NO ONE has the time for that and Im glad I did. If they do,
then they must love math and calculations and rules with WAY too many exceptions that a computer could easily handle the work of. I rarely played solitaire (always vs real people) but with computers, solitaire wargaming will one day I think be more challenging than real people. I believe this because with the right resources and learning AIs, done right I think it should "steal" the best strategies for use in different situations that work well for it. When game companies leverage our data for AIs that can learn (many do for other reasons), i guarantee a "mean" as you want computer opponent is possible.

Just on the MP point, the async nature of the game means that you don't need to block out a ton of time for a game as you are never 'online' to play - it is all asynchronous. Some players are happy to do a turn a day (others prefer quicker games but most accept that there is a broad amount of time that people can play). So I would say jump in!

The AI is fully scripted (check out CORE\AI). You can create your own AI folder and scripts in a local campaign and tinker to your hearts content.

Cheers

Pip

[sturmer25]

Thanks Pip, looking at BA1 AI code because now I know where to look. Im running BA2 with Crossover in a WinXp Bottle (Failed to launch on Parrellels Win7) and I havent gone digging yet. But I will look for it there too.

The fact you make the AI code moddable is AMAZING and the comments make it so I can understand wahts going on. You guys are amazing, thank you! Look forward to poking through BA2 AI.

So if say I modified AI in some well with some help of a developer, I could then make it avail to players easily?

[IainMcNeil]

If you guys find a way to make a better AI than we have then you can share the files as a mod with other players or if there are no aside effects it could even be merged back in to the main game if you were interested.

[mkjhartmann]

Hi Ian,

that is very cool. This is the first wargame that I know of that the community could work on improving the AI, not just graphics and OOBs. Very nice indeed.

Love the game, BTW. Awesome product. Wargame of the Year, IMHO.

Mike

[Grimnirsson]

Wargame of the Year

+1

The new features are great, the game comes closer to the Squad Leader board game experience (for the ASL experience Slitherine must of couse include even more features, but who knows... ) and it's just pure fun. Thank you very much for this new incarnation of one of my favorite wargames on PC (and...think about bringing it to consoles this time...it is just perfect as a download title, could be a BIG HIT... I'm playing this with a friend (we have been playing BA1 for months constantly) and first thing he said:"I would even play this more if it was on the PS4...")

[IainMcNeil]

Thanks guys the game is very moddable. You can even add the new features yourself. You can do pretty much anything you can think of and have time to code. The entire combat model and game system is driven from scripts. E.g. you could add radios, limit control of units out of radio range, show radio icons, add paratroopers, create factories producing units, add vehicle repair and much much more.

[Gerry4321]

Back to the AI question. Now that the game has been out for a while does it seem that it is too easy to win against the AI?

Thanks,

Gerry

[gdrover]

The AI is certainly not as good as most human players, especially of they've been playing strategy games for a while (about 40 years for this guy).
On the other hand, I'm playing the Barbarossa campaign and the AI's play is probably not too dissimilar to how the Soviets really performed. My goal is to see if I can achieve all of the objectives and also have a 3 - 5 X kill ratio.

I was running good and winning every battle, until I ran into an ambush battle where my troops were strung out on a road and the Soviets attacked from both sides of the road. Their T-34's coming out of cover were devastating. I think I responded well to a very tough situation, but still took heavy losses.