Defensive Scenario & Game Balance

[NotOneStepBack]

I feel like this should be discussed.

Once you get to defensive scenarios and head down the historical path -- at least for me -- there isn't much prestige to come by. On Generallissimus I was easily plodding along and capturing and netting upwards to 8K prestige. Then came El Alamein and Tunis. I'm sure the problem is about to get worse in Italy, but I am only speculating as I haven't beaten the historical path yet. I have beaten the ahistorical path and when you are on the offensive, the game is too easy. You snowball out of control by capturing on the offense, but you also spiral downwards out of control on the defense.

The problem is two fold. First, you don't have any objectives to take, you only have to hold. So there are little to no prestige grabs on defensive missions. The second that is the bonus prestige timer doesn't work for defensive scenarios at all. So I'm supposed to hold all victory hexes until the last turn, but by doing so, there is 0% prestige bonus for winning. Your reward is survival and then another defensive scenario as Germany starts to lose the war. I think you should get at least 1 - 2K prestige for holding out on some of these missions.

To compound the issue, on these scenarios you are typically outnumbered and outgunned. So you are going to take losses and will have to bleed prestige in order to stay alive and hold. There are so many tanks and infantry coming at you on the two scenarios mentioned above that you cannot encircle & capture easily (or at all). So you continue to bleed prestige.

Was this intentional game design for going down the historical path? I get that maybe since you didn't win the one turning point battle in your path and/or pay the prestige cost to go ahistorical Germany is going to lose the war so it will get harder, but was the intention to make your life miserable on the way to fighting for Berlin, or was it to keep the player engaged the whole campaign until Berlin?

[dalfrede]

The problem is . . . On Generallissimus I was . . .

FIFY

So I'm supposed to hold all victory hexes until the last turn,

Wrong. You are to hold all VHs ON the last turn.

The game was designed to be played on Colonel, not Generallissimus.
Generallissimus was added because players would want to play it, not because players should win on it.

Having the game winnable on FM but not on Generallissimus looks to me like good design.

[Horseman]

The problem is . . . On Generallissimus I was . . .

FIFY

So I'm supposed to hold all victory hexes until the last turn,

Wrong. You are to hold all VHs ON the last turn.

The game was designed to be played on Colonel, not Generallissimus.
Generallissimus was added because players would want to play it, not because players should win on it.

Having the game winnable on FM but not on Generallissimus looks to me like good design.

100% agree - you're playing on the hardest difficulty and should not be surprised that its hard. There are several difficulty levels below it that you can drop to if it is proving too hard.

Generallissimus should not be easy.

[NotOneStepBack]

I totally understand what you're saying. But shouldn't there be a reward on any difficulty for winning a defensive fight?

[dalfrede]

Note:"You are to hold all VHs ON the last turn."
This was tactical advice. Retreat, let the attackers over extend, counter attack, surround, capture.
PRESTIGE!!
This is easier to say than to do, but it may work.

[NotOneStepBack]

Yes I understood you the first time, and I don't need the condescending tone.

Try it on El Alamein or Tunis and get back to me on Generalissimus. There is nowhere to retreat TO on Tunis with the sea to your back.

I'm done with this thread if I'm only going to be mocked.

[Horseman]

It's not mocking. Some good advice was given. But ultimately, you are playing on the hardest difficulty, it should be challenging and realistically if you're struggling it may be worth dropping the difficulty down a notch.

[adiekmann]

I tried my second play through on Field Marshal and was struggling. By France I switched it back to General. Perhaps I am not as good a player as I thought? Or I need to first still learn the subtleties of this game more before diving into a harder level. I usually played PC1 on the second highest difficulty level. I rarely play any game at its hardest. It is all about what's fun or not fun. I don't care about ratings boards or achievements on Steam or that sort of thing.

I don't mind the prestige adjustment like it was in harder difficulties in PC1, but I don't like it when the AI gets unnaturally stronger statistically (i.e. higher accuracy rating). I personally would then rather keep playing General level and just click a few more negative general traits.

[NotOneStepBack]

It's not mocking. Some good advice was given. But ultimately, you are playing on the hardest difficulty, it should be challenging and realistically if you're struggling it may be worth dropping the difficulty down a notch.

I definitely learned a lot on this level, actually, I would reccommend it. I didn't expect it to be a walk in the park (general was in my first game). I think I am going to play it out until I can't continue, I'm pretty proud of getting to Sicily so far with 2.5k prestige left. We'll see how it goes. I think I could make it to the end with some tweaks to my general traits and strategy, but I definitely noticed that when you are on the defensive side and the war turns, you really need your "A" game and some luck, otherwise you'll be attrited to death scenario after scenario.

[Horseman]

I tried my second play through on Field Marshal and was struggling. By France I switched it back to General. Perhaps I am not as good a player as I thought? Or I need to first still learn the subtleties of this game more before diving into a harder level. I usually played PC1 on the second highest difficulty level. I rarely play any game at its hardest. It is all about what's fun or not fun. I don't care about ratings boards or achievements on Steam or that sort of thing.

I don't mind the prestige adjustment like it was in harder difficulties in PC1, but I don't like it when the AI gets unnaturally stronger statistically (i.e. higher accuracy rating). I personally would then rather keep playing General level and just click a few more negative general traits.

I'm hoping for sliders like we had in PC1 at some point. I'd love to be able to have the prestige penalty without the rather large bonus to accuracy the AI gets!

[Horseman]

It's not mocking. Some good advice was given. But ultimately, you are playing on the hardest difficulty, it should be challenging and realistically if you're struggling it may be worth dropping the difficulty down a notch.

I definitely learned a lot on this level, actually, I would reccommend it. I didn't expect it to be a walk in the park (general was in my first game). I think I am going to play it out until I can't continue, I'm pretty proud of getting to Sicily so far with 2.5k prestige left. We'll see how it goes. I think I could make it to the end with some tweaks to my general traits and strategy, but I definitely noticed that when you are on the defensive side and the war turns, you really need your "A" game and some luck, otherwise you'll be attrited to death scenario after scenario.

Actually sounds like fun to me. If you ever played the grand campaign in PC1 this exact same thing became a problem in the later years. You had to carefully hoard your prestige through the opening years so you had it in the bank for the last few years.

I also agree its a good way to get better - my play in the last few scenarios has been markedly much better than the opening few. Some of it is learning the nuances of the game and some of it learning to adapt my play style from PC1.

[panzeh]

If you want the prestige penalty without the AI combat bonus, you can play 'Europe on a Shoestring' on normal and it comes out very close to the same. The prestige per scenario on Generalissimus is a pittance anyway compared to city bonuses/capture bonuses.

[Edmon]

A little tip,

If you let the enemy take a town, then take it back (towns you start with) you will get prestige for them.

[PoorOldSpike]

Yes I understood you the first time, and I don't need the condescending tone.
Try it on El Alamein or Tunis and get back to me on Generalissimus. There is nowhere to retreat TO on Tunis with the sea to your back.
I'm done with this thread if I'm only going to be mocked.

You played on hardest Generalissimus which reduces your prestige by a whopping 80% and gives +20% to enemy accuracy so no wonder the AI handed your ass to you..
Personally I play everything on General (the medium level) where our prest is reduced by 30% and the enemy gets no accuracy bonus.

[Retributarr]

Yes I understood you the first time, and I don't need the condescending tone.
Try it on El Alamein or Tunis and get back to me on Generalissimus. There is nowhere to retreat TO on Tunis with the sea to your back.
I'm done with this thread if I'm only going to be mocked.

You played on hardest difficulty so no wonder the AI handed your ass to you..

Alrightie!!!... remember the well known phrases from the 'Vietnam war'... "Pork Chop Hill" & "Hamburger Hill".
Kind of reminiscent of... "Custers Last Stand" at the 'Little Big Horn' where his whole detachment/brigade or whatever got annihilated!.

[JohnVeiLin]

Hand over all key objects, and then capture again.

[Dmurphy238]

Am just starting El Alamein and noticed that I am not going in with a lot of prestige. Am I getting this right, if you lose an objective and then win it back, you get prestige? It has happened to me occasionally on the ahistorical path but didn’t pay any attention to whether I got prestige or not.

[adiekmann]

Am just starting El Alamein and noticed that I am not going in with a lot of prestige. Am I getting this right, if you lose an objective and then win it back, you get prestige? It has happened to me occasionally on the ahistorical path but didn’t pay any attention to whether I got prestige or not.

Yes, any objective that you begin the scenario with, you can win prestige the first time you recapture it. If you lose it again, a second or third time, for example, you will not get any prestige for recapturing it after the first time.

The basic rule is this to remember: You can only win prestige for any given tile once. Period. It was the same in PC1, but not in PG1.

[dalfrede]

Am just starting El Alamein and noticed that I am not going in with a lot of prestige. Am I getting this right, if you lose an objective and then win it back, you get prestige? It has happened to me occasionally on the ahistorical path but didn’t pay any attention to whether I got prestige or not.

In general you will get prestige for first time recapture a flag, but not second.
In some scenarios flags don't give any prestige for capture.

General rule: flags 50, VHs 100, one time each scenario.
Scenario designer controls prestige awards, which is why the standalone scenarios often work different from campaign scenarios.

[PoorOldSpike]

Incidentally Generalissimus level reduces our prestige by a whopping 80% and gives +20% to enemy accuracy, so if anybody's looking for trouble, Generalissimus is the place to go-
https://youtu.be/OTRjpWSQ_Yw

PS- I'm not sure whether the prest penalty applies to income per turn or to points for capturing places, or to both as maths was never my strong point.
And like guys have said, we don't HAVE to play G'lissimus if we don't want to even if we're experienced wargamers, personally I play everything on General (the medium level) where our prest is reduced by 30% and the enemy gets no accuracy bonus, and overall I find it's the most comfortably realistic level and I've been wargaming for 40 years..