How to deal with cavalry (both for & against)

[jogibbs12]

I'm a newish player (<100hrs) and I've been enjoying playing campaigns against the AI so far. I've mostly figured out how to play infantry armies and mixed infantry-cavalry armies (thanks youtube video makers!), but I am having a lot of trouble dealing with armies with a lot of cavalry (both playing them and against them).

Against infantry and mixed infantry-cav armies, I can often finish a battle at the 40% rout mark at the Governor level. But if I'm playing a cav army or against a cav army, I'm lucky to win 60-50 or just lose outright. I also have to drop down a few difficulty levels, to Legate / Tribune to continue the campaign.

Maybe this normal for newer players since cav armies are harder to learn. ( Incidentally, I don't mind this; it would be nice though if the scenario briefing noted the enemy army type so I could drop the difficulty down before I start the scenario )

But I'd also like to improve at playing cav. Anyone with tips on how they got past this hurdle?

As far as I can tell, playing cav requires a lot more patience than playing infantry, and you have to make a lot more multistep attacks because committing wrong or too early is dangerous. The AI seems to be much better at these multistep maneuvers than me (a typical newish player I assume).

My usual failures involve me trying bait the AI, and getting baited in return. I don't wait quite long enough, use up all my ammo (on the wrong targets?) and get my units in bad position so I get surrounded and killed rather, than surrounding and killing them like I originally thought. Getting outnumbered feels much more dangerous with cav armies than infantry armies. Excess enemy infantry can be in the background milling around for eons, but excess enemy cav gets back into the action quickly. Strangely I can't my excess cav back into the action quickly, the AI usually does well to block it, and I rarely have excess cav. Even if I have a temporary lead, it's white-knuckles to mop up and grind out a 60% win.

I started by learning to play the Romans and found taking initiative, attacking and making weaknesses that you can follow up is usually a winner with infantry armies. That habit seems to be a risky approach for cav only armies.

Any tips, guides, videos or experiences to share? Also, are there any historical parallels to this (am I just reliving Crassus over and over again)? Or is this just an artifact of the AI being better at cav than infantry and me having no flair for cav play?

[SnuggleBunnies]

Well there's cavalry and there's cavalry. What kind of army lists are you talking about?

[jogibbs12]

Thanks for the response. When I'm set against cav armies in campaigns (e.g. the 1st Mithdrates scenario), I do much worse than if I'm against "regular" infantry/mixed armies. I don't have a good approach for a battle plan in those scenarios.

So I decided to switch sides and learn to play a cav army. But surprise, I'm not doing any better, and am probably worse, on the cav side. E.g. I'm having a lot of trouble playing the Hun campaign (as horse archers).

Then I realized I must be missing some basics. For infantry armies, I understand the idea of studying the terrain, picking a good spot for the clash, deciding where to load up (e.g. on one side of the line), try to overwhelm them there and flank around to the other side to mop up. I understand some units don't have to win to do their job, but just delay or occupy their counterparts. I have some idea of picking targets, which opponent units are soft, which ones you'll never beat in time, and should just leave alone. I can see which units of the opponents are too far away to affect the action in time, and try to avoid the same happening to my units.

For horse armies, I don't have a comparable mental framework. I can't rely on the clash happening at any place I want it to, so I'm not sure what terrain I'm looking for. My only battle plan I have is to try gang up on units on the corners, but I end up spreading myself dangerously thin. I don't know what unit beats what efficiently. It seems like every unit can threaten every other one, but none decisively. And if it's not decisive, you'll get bogged down, which is generally bad. If you do seize a early lead, you usually pay some type of price for it (e.g. you focus fire down one unit, but then you're out of arrows, weaking 3 of your units for 1 of theirs). Converting leads to wins is harder, and the mop up phase is tricky (both mopping up cav with infantry and mopping up infantry with cav).

This probably makes it a richer strategic challenge once you figure it out, but I'm still in the clueless phase \_(ツ)_/¯. I figure others must have gone through the same learning process, but I haven't found a good post or video on it.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Hmm I haven't made a guide video on cavalry yet, but you can find plenty of videos of me or opponents using cavalry armies on my channel. Cursory searches for 'Hun' or 'Mongol' on the channel bring up plenty of matches. Of course that is multiplayer, which is even points as opposed to being outnumbered as you generally are in single player, but humans are almost always much tougher opponents, especially in tournaments.

With nomad type armies, the thing to keep in mind is that it is completely unnecessary to destroy the high quality core of the enemy's army; instead, you can try to keep your distance from their infantry and concentrate on shooting down their outnumbered (and much more vulnerable) cavalry and lights. Once you've done that, you should be able to work your way into the enemy's rear, needing to break only a small number of infantry units to get the remaining needed rout %.

I realize that is a bit vague, but that's the best I can do with a more general question. If you post specific lists/screenshots of games you're having trouble with, I could probably respond with a bit more detail.

[Karvon]

Cavalry armies rely on mobility to shift the opponent out of position and then concentrate on weaker portions of the enemy line or isolated units. This ability decreases in direct proportion to the rough and difficult terrain on a field. If you can't easily redeploy, it's much, much easier for the enemy to pin you down or drive you off the board.

Another tricky part to master is, aside from lancers, cavalry is very likely to evade if charged. A number of factors impact the odds of this including morale, range, terrain advantage, relative position. Then you throw in the randomness associated with evasion and pursuit distances and paths, and things get even more complicated to predict and plan for. If you give yourself sufficient depth, gaps and lines, you can use this to your advantage to pull enemy units into dangerous situations where they can be easily flanked. On the other hand, a bit of unpredicted movement can lead to a domino of your own units getting caught and disrupted due to flank or rear charges. This unpredictability is magnified in cavalry vs cavalry, given the higher movement rates on both sides. The simplest thing to remember is don't bunch up and keep lots of space between your lines in such contests.

Cavalry thrives on the flanks, it's not going to usually win by charging straight into an opposing line. Even lancers will usually just bounce off most infantry who stand to receive them. You can use cavalry to delay and break up enemy lines by moving up to point-blank range, just make sure you have sufficient room to recoil or evade, and that you've kept a relatively secure line, or your opponent may slip units in behind to prevent recoils.

Mounted work best in packs that can mutually support each other. One engages, another moves to flank. If you need to avoid bounces, move up a unit behind the charger before you actually complete the charge. That will allow for a flanker to disrupt, rather than both bouncing. Keeping a couple of light horse or light foot close by for those blocking moves as they can shift around more easily. Likewise, you can shift a light horse behind an enemy to prevent them from falling back from a melee.

You need to maximize the effectiveness of your mounted bow fire. Concentrate on single units with multiple ones. Try to make your approach moves so that your enemy will end his move at 1, or ideally 2, spaces away. Angle your units to anticipate enemy moving into your field of fire. The less you move, the more damaging your fire will be. Focus on the less armored targets first, as you'll do more damage and break them more quickly, which may lead heavier armored units to failed CT checks.

As SB pointed out, target your opponent's weaker troops as much as possible; you don't need to destroy the whole army to win the game.

These are just a few points to consider; whole books could probably be written on the topic

Karvon

[MVP7]

In my experience the best counter to a cavalry army is your own 3:1 or 2:1 mix army of average bow cavalry with decent shock cavalry. The bow cavalry can be substituted with foot missiles but it makes it a bit harder to keep everything organized (especially if your cavalry is of evading sort).

When playing with an infantry army against an AI cavalry army, things usually gets a bit more finicky and messy and I have not figured out any easy or clean solutions. What I have found to work best is ZoC locking enemy cavalry down just by having infantry stand in front of them while other units try to surround or shoot them. Light-spear cavalry can be especially difficult to pin down with their evasions so its important to try and herd them in directions where where they can be immediately charged again without evasion. If you have any non-light cavalry at all, you should dedicate it to flanking any enemy horse you have managed to pin down.

Cheap infantry units are great asset in this kind of fighting since you realistically need to dedicate 2 or 3 units to any single cavalry unit you are aiming to take down. This scales harshly with higher difficulties so you should also aim to exploit various AI behaviors like their tendency to commit too many units to chasing lone non-lights. AI also tends to get paralyzed when you approach them from two opposite sides and it will never commit to a charge that would leave its own flank open to a charge. Of course any delaying and paralyzing tactics are a double edged sword if the enemy cavalry is bow armed.

[jogibbs12]

Wow! Thanks for the detailed responses. A few points already resonate with me:

Cheap infantry units are great asset in this kind of fighting since you realistically need to dedicate 2 or 3 units to any single cavalry unit you are aiming to take down. This scales harshly with higher difficulties

This! There's no obvious way to take down a unit without overcommitting your own resources. Tieing down 3 units for 2-3 turns just to knock out 1 unit of theirs is an ugly trade. I've like the idea of recruiting cheap foot lights to try to make the trade more cost effective (if sufficient numbers are available in the scenario). Seems like a mass army of cheap foot lights would be terrifying for a horse archer opponent.

If you give yourself sufficient depth, gaps and lines, you can use this to your advantage to pull enemy units into dangerous situations where they can be easily flanked.... The simplest thing to remember is don't bunch up and keep lots of space between your lines in such contests.

One idea I considered was to lure the AI to make the first move, but I haven't quite pulled it off in my games. I don't regularly have 2 full lines set up, as Karvon suggested, so that might be the key. This probably requires a lot of practice to set up.

I have watched some youtube videos and they tend to deploy a lot more in lines & formations than I do. I realize now I'm probably clumping up / surrounding too much to try to maximize my focus fire, and not planning for the opponent charge.

With nomad type armies, the thing to keep in mind is that it is completely unnecessary to destroy the high quality core of the enemy's army; instead, you can try to keep your distance from their infantry and concentrate on shooting down their outnumbered (and much more vulnerable) cavalry and lights. Once you've done that, you should be able to work your way into the enemy's rear, needing to break only a small number of infantry units to get the remaining needed rout %.

I start out by trying to destroy their lights, but it takes so many turns, since the lights all evade. Halfway through the rest of their army catches up, and I give up and try to deal with the other units instead. Is it worth persevering and getting full Lights-Dominance (ie I have some lights left, they have none)? I feel like I'm wasting a lot of arrows if I want to go 100% to try to destroy their lights. Worth it, or better to spend the arrows on beefier units?

But if I don't keep focusing the lights, what's the next unit-type to target?

[jogibbs12]

Here are some specific questions. What are the main roles of each of these different types of units in a cav engagement:

1. Foot lights - I assume their role is to shoot down opposing horse & foot lights early on, and to block movement later on when out of arrows. The problem is that later on, they're an easy source of points for the opponents to target/rout when they're just standing around blocking stuff.

2. Horse lights - I assume to shoot down opposing horse & foot lights early on, and to chase down foot & horse lights later on. The problem is that they're often disrupted/fragmented later on, and aren't even strong enough to chase.

Plus both units 1 and 2 have a tendency to get caught in an early charge and you either have to sacrifice the unit or be dragged into an engagement that you didn't plan for.

I also have some fantasy of using types 1 and 2 later in the battle to cheaply ZOC out troublesome opponent lights. But if they're troublesome, that's cause they're at full strength and I'm not. Otherwise, I'd just take them out. So I haven't found them that useful for ZOC-ing later on in the fight.

3. Cav archers - I assume shooting is their main role. What do you do with them once they're low on arrows?

For both types 2 & 3, who should they prioritize spending their arrows on, opposing lights, opposing heavier cav, opposing foot units, opposing general units? I assume limited arrows means you have to spend them wisely. How to decide when to switch from shooting to charging a weakened target?

4. Cav melee - In infantry armies, I use them to flank and rout, once another unit fixes their target in position. In cav engagements, it takes a long time to fix an opponent into a situation where it's safe to flank. I find I get my cav melee bogged down into combat well before then.

Is it a waste of them to charge before you set up a flank (just a regular 2 on 1 or 3 on 1 charge)? Those can take 3-4 turns to resolve in your favor. And weakens your unit so it can't charge as effectively later on.

5. Lancers - no idea what they're good for. They seem like 4, but even a worse matchup against other heavier units. Plus they don't evade. Seem almost a liability.

For both unit types 4 and 5, what's a good 1 on 1 matchup for them? Both of them can't reliably chase horse lights, and maybe not even foot lights. Also, they are at best even against opponent heavier cav or infantry, so it's not favorable 1 on 1. Plus they sometimes bounce off units so they aren't even good for fixing the opponent, for someone else to charge. Are they also only useful 2 or 3 on 1?

Are there any matchups that are 1 on 1 favorable for you?

[SnuggleBunnies]

I start out by trying to destroy their lights, but it takes so many turns, since the lights all evade. Halfway through the rest of their army catches up, and I give up and try to deal with the other units instead. Is it worth persevering and getting full Lights-Dominance (ie I have some lights left, they have none)? I feel like I'm wasting a lot of arrows if I want to go 100% to try to destroy their lights. Worth it, or better to spend the arrows on beefier units?

But if I don't keep focusing the lights, what's the next unit-type to target?
Are there any matchups that are 1 on 1 favorable for you?

It's often enough to damage the enemy's lights enough that they don't present a real threat to your shooters, and then switch to concentrating first on killing the enemy's non light cavalry, as it is vulnerable. Once they're out of the way you really don't have much to worry about in terms of getting caught out, and can concentrate on the infantry. Squishier units like Medium Foot will be more vulnerable to cohesion drops, which you can follow up with a charge by (if you have them) your lancers that you have kept in reserve.

1. Foot lights - I assume their role is to shoot down opposing horse & foot lights early on, and to block movement later on when out of arrows. The problem is that later on, they're an easy source of points for the opponents to target/rout when they're just standing around blocking stuff.

Even at low ammo they are a threat to enemy cavalry - not cavalry on the move necessarily, but thanks to the stationary shooting bonus you can't necessarily just ignore them. They are only an easy source of points in the open, and even then you can try to position them so that charging and killing them wastes the time of a much more valuable unit.

2. Horse lights - I assume to shoot down opposing horse & foot lights early on, and to chase down foot & horse lights later on. The problem is that they're often disrupted/fragmented later on, and aren't even strong enough to chase.

The ideal situation for light horse is getting them entirely behind the enemy army. From here they can charge lights, break fragged units or frag disrupted units, randomly charge important targets for the base +50POA, which can cause drops, and, critically, threaten Bowmen. All cavalry, light and non light, get +100 Impact against Bowmen in the open, so you can use this (against the AI, to kill their Bowmen, against a player, to force them to move or cover them).

3. Cav archers - I assume shooting is their main role. What do you do with them once they're low on arrows?

For both types 2 & 3, who should they prioritize spending their arrows on, opposing lights, opposing heavier cav, opposing foot units, opposing general units? I assume limited arrows means you have to spend them wisely. How to decide when to switch from shooting to charging a weakened target?

They need to win fire superiority, so reduce the enemy's missiles to the point that they are not a local threat. This can be done by shooting the enemy, but it can also be done by concentrating on one flank.

4. Cav melee - In infantry armies, I use them to flank and rout, once another unit fixes their target in position. In cav engagements, it takes a long time to fix an opponent into a situation where it's safe to flank. I find I get my cav melee bogged down into combat well before then.

Is it a waste of them to charge before you set up a flank (just a regular 2 on 1 or 3 on 1 charge)? Those can take 3-4 turns to resolve in your favor. And weakens your unit so it can't charge as effectively later on.

There isn't a one size fits all answer to this. This just depends. How vital is it to break that unit? How vital is it that your unit not break? What benefit do you gain by either charging in directly or taking time to setup a flank?

5. Lancers - no idea what they're good for. They seem like 4, but even a worse matchup against other heavier units. Plus they don't evade. Seem almost a liability.

Lancers are not liability, they are powerful, but they are more useful once you have a good understanding of how evasion works. They also impost CT penalties on units they beat on Impact, which is very useful. No they cannot charge Spears or Pikes head on and expect to do much, (except Cataphracts, but that tends to be a wasteful way to use them). They can charge Light Spear or Impact Foot head on and do okay, but they are much better used in more subtle ways. Against infantry, they ideally should wait until the enemy is disrupted, and then charge in. This can be a shattering blow thanks to their extra CT modifiers, and against Spear/Pike, it unlocks their full Lance Impact. Against horse archers, they need to maneuver to being adjacent to the enemy, and *then* charge on their next turn, to maximize the chance of catching them. Alternately, they can wait until the horse archers have bunched up to shoot at your infantry, and then sally out; with the enemy bunched up, it's quite possible to charge multiple evaders, catch one, and then chain break several of them.

There are also Lancers with 50% Bow, which can be used in combination with your own pure missile units to simultaneously cause drops and move into effective charge positions.

[MVP7]

Here are some specific questions. What are the main roles of each of these different types of units in a cav engagement:

1. Foot lights...
2. Horse lights...
3. Cav archers...
4. Cav melee...
5. Lancers...

Exposing light foot(1) and cavalry(2) to enemy cavalry early on is usually not great idea unless you can heavily disrupt their formation (e.g. your light horse evading and pulling individual enemy horse withing reach of your army, or off to the side) or if they can absorb significant amount of missile attacks that would otherwise hit your most important and expensive cavalry.

If you can get light foot(1) into small patches of rough ground or woods, thy can be ignored by the AI and cause significant damage over the course of the game. If you get your light cavalry(2) behind the enemy force they can be relatively safe and contribute with surprisingly dangerous rear charges.

Cavalry archers(3) should be used flexibly, shoot when you have a good shot*, charge when you have a ripe target. Keep in mind that in flank attack and melee there's no practical difference between horse archers and shock cavalry (i.e. 4 & 5). Against disrupted opponents, they impact as well as shock cavalry would against steady unit.

Cavalry archers(3) are very effective at getting into good flank charge positions while still shooting as they go. If you pack your Cavalry archers loose and deep, enemies might charge and pursue deep into your formation where they are exposed to withering amount of missiles (this is risky and unnecessary unless you are fighting something like medieval knights though).

Non-lancer melee cavalry(4) is generally just cheaper version Cavalry Archers without the ranged fire. They should focus on setting up on flanks or on kiting and drawing enemy cavalry (or other units) away from the main combat with clear cost advantage. Evasion means they can't be used to form a line and they might even make a line less durable as pursuing enemy ignores ZoC.

Lancer cavalry(5) is the only type of cavalry that will hold a line. They do not evade so you can use them as a fairly stable front line. Use that to form a ZoC screen and place your missile units (1, 2, 3 and massed archers) behind them. This also tends to be the safest position for the aforementioned missile troops where they can still fully contribute to the battle. After the missiles have disrupted enemies in front of the lancers, the lancers can engage with great odds. Lancers are of course pretty good as flankers but unlike light spear and bow cavalry (3 & 4), they won't try to get out of the harms way if they end up being charged themselves.

Best matchups for both lights-spear cavalry(4) and lancers(5) are disrupted/fragmented enemies or enemy flanks (and really the same goes for 3 as well). A 1-to-1 engagement is a zero sum game. You should always try to combine your cavalry with missile units so they don't have to get into any fair fights. I also try to concentrate my cavalry as much as possible so I can locally overwhelm the enemy cavalry and snowball that advantage even if the enemy army has more cavalry than me on the whole (this usually leaves my other flank in precarious situation though).

Depending on the composition of enemy army, I tend to ignore lone light cavalry / infantry that is nipping at my heels. The most effective way to fight them is to let them engage in melee with your own light unit and then charge them with a non light unit. If you just need to get in rid of them, have an expendable cavalry unit chase and pursue them (chain the pursuits if you can), actually connecting with them is of secondary importance in this situation and you will likely lose the pursuing cavalry unit.

----

* Concentrate fire, but look into the missile CT mechanics so you don't over-concentrate, CTs are always the goal main goal rather than the damage.

[jogibbs12]

Thanks. Lots of thoughts to chew on and things to try in my next campaign!

One more question: what's the best use of sub-generals/generals in cav armies? Do you move them around a lot? Do generals even improve the shooting ability of a unit?

On the flip side, do you target opposing generals or do you try to avoid fighting them and target other non-general units instead?

For infantry armies, I usually use my generals as either leading the main assault or to hold down a flank. But "holding" seems less important for cav (maybe for lancers), and I'm not sure generals improve "shooting" that much. You can't guarantee an engagement, so having a general lead a charge could get your general trapped in enemy territory and quickly killed. And if you're flanking/assisting then you don't need the general that much. Which means cav generals should lead from behind (combat recovery + free turns)?

On the flip side, I do try to target down opposing generals in infantry fights (not sure if that's the best strat, but it seems to work ok, and I like that it leaves me with the stronger units in the later game). But I find targeting opposing generals in cav fights seem like a waste of arrows & time, when I can get the same points more easily from other weaker units.

[Karvon]

I typically operate cavalry in 2-3 lines. I usually keep generals in the last line and use them to rally disrupted or fragmented units which have been driven back through the ranks or fallen back behind the first ones. You do need to be careful with generals attached to horse, as they can pursue way out of the action or into dangerous surroundings where they can be flanked and killed. This is particularly dangerous with your CiC due to his wider area of effect on CT checks if killed. Sometimes, especially out on the wings, you do need that extra bonus in key melees though and have to risk it.

Karvon

[jogibbs12]

Hmm I haven't made a guide video on cavalry yet, but you can find plenty of videos of me or opponents using cavalry armies on my channel. Cursory searches for 'Hun' or 'Mongol' on the channel bring up plenty of matches. Of course that is multiplayer, which is even points as opposed to being outnumbered as you generally are in single player, but humans are almost always much tougher opponents, especially in tournaments.

I watched a few of your multiplayer matchups. I really like this video:

You're obviously a lot better than me, but to my untrained eye, you made some of the similar "mistakes" I tend to make in setting up the fight (maybe they aren't "mistakes" per se, but I get into similar trouble when I start that way). I think you stretched the line too thin, and you didn't delay battle long enough on the right (you moved the infantry off the hill, rather than take the arrows). As a result, you took a long time to gain superiority on the left, and his counterpunch in the middle got through fast. Your right crumbled, and you fell behind on points.

But once you got your local superiority on the left, you cleaned up great (especially the clump of infantry in the rough ground in the middle). I would've lost for sure! While you pulled out a 60-40 win.

I have trouble cleaning up quickly with cav once I get some sort of edge, and this gives me a mental image for how you can do it.

[jogibbs12]

I also like this one, as it shows a irresistable attack by a Hun horde:



I'm sure they don't all go that well, but the L shaped attack by the Huns on the corner really sets up multiple flanks once a unit or 2 gets through. Another mental image to strive for.

[SnuggleBunnies]

A minor point on that first video, that was awhile ago so I can't remember the exact rationale for moving my right, but one possibility is that I didn't want to stand and take the stationary shooting bonus. Keep in mind that missile units are never firing at 100% effectiveness, but instead at 80% effectiveness (having moved or turned) or 120% effectiveness for stationary shooting, a massive difference in casualties inflicted. So standing under fire may not have actually given more time, as my men would likely have been shot up and dropped cohesion faster; though as you noted there were distinct downsides to coming down too.

[Jorgito78]

I'm no expert here, and sorry if this was already mentioned, but if you are against cav armies and your list has Elephants, you should max out on those. Against cav archers, be sure to screen the Elephants untill you get close to engaging. Also, cav is prone to evade so try to charge with a unit and then rear-charge (specially with Elephants). If Elephants stick on Melee, it's great because they can't be fired upon and the danger of being exposed to flank charges is nearly inexistent since cav can't flank charge Elephants (well, they can but don't cause cohesion drops and odds are not favourable)

[jogibbs12]

Good point on elephants. Right now, I'm learning Huns and Byzantines, so no elephants for me. But going up against them, they're a load to deal with. I have to refocus all my attention to taking them down a notch or two before collision.

Speaking of army lists, I noticed in some of snuggle's videos that he mentions that Huns don't do well in multiplayer. Is there a good source of multiplayer stats by army? I tried googling and I find links that are either really old (2018 timeframe), or broken links.

[Karvon]

If you check the old Digital League forums, you can find the data for armies used. Naturally, not all were used, and a few more dlcs were released after DL closed down, but it's probably the only such collection of data.

[Jorgito78]

Speaking of army lists, I noticed in some of snuggle's videos that he mentions that Huns don't do well in multiplayer. Is there a good source of multiplayer stats by army? I tried googling and I find links that are either really old (2018 timeframe), or broken links.

Here is a vídeo of SnuggleBunny (getting trashed ) against the Huns played by Nosy_Rat (an extremely good player)
https://youtu.be/Xo8PLSOJ4o0?si=tHlxhUfqwELZ1cWA

[jogibbs12]

If you check the old Digital League forums, you can find the data for armies used. Naturally, not all were used, and a few more dlcs were released after DL closed down, but it's probably the only such collection of data.

I saw this: https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83417

but it dates from 2018, and doesn't have exact win-loss records. Is that the newest that people know of?

And what's the story of the DL, for us newcomers?