No Elites for Spartans?

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stevoid
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No Elites for Spartans?

Post by stevoid » Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:17 am

I was wondering whether the published lists will allow Spartans some Elite troops?

Given their martial upbringing, constant training, and historical morale, it seems strange that Romans, Macedonians et al all get some elite troops but the Spartans none. Rationale?

Steve

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Post by nikgaukroger » Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:02 am

No they won't get any.

Rationale - they don't need to be to get the historical results, both their wins and their losses. It also has the useful effect that where you want them to have elite performance you have to stick a general with them which accords with history whilst, on occasion, both Makedonian and Roman troops did so without generals leading them directly.

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Post by stevoid » Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:54 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:No they won't get any.

Rationale - they don't need to be to get the historical results, both their wins and their losses. It also has the useful effect that where you want them to have elite performance you have to stick a general with them which accords with history whilst, on occasion, both Makedonian and Roman troops did so without generals leading them directly.
Mmmm, one might argue that you need to be elite and have an inspired general to explain Thermopylae :)

It would be nice to have the criteria for quality grading explained fully as I think that with all the lists not yet out people are going to start to discuss possible gradings etc for troops.

Steve

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Post by nikgaukroger » Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:28 pm

You're not going to get any more descrition that is in the rules as these things are necessarily fuzzy in order that there is leeway to get the correct result on the table top.

Oh, and as there were, at most, only a couple of FoG bases of Spartans at Thermopylai it really isn't a good example on which to base their grading when in army sized numbers :twisted:

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Post by stevoid » Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:08 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:You're not going to get any more descrition that is in the rules as these things are necessarily fuzzy in order that there is leeway to get the correct result on the table top.

Oh, and as there were, at most, only a couple of FoG bases of Spartans at Thermopylai it really isn't a good example on which to base their grading when in army sized numbers :twisted:
Not in army sized numbers maybe, but perhaps enough to allow 2-4 bases as there is evidence that Spartans exhibited such behavior/capability?

Also, the FOG rules state that the figure to men ratio is a floating concept based on the type/size of battle being fought.

Note I don't own and am not planning on owning a Spartan army - I just find it hard to accept that the elite martial state of classical times, with a solid history of exemplary bravery and military prowess, does not have the option to have any elite troops.

Cheers,

Steve

edit: PS - it's hardly worth submitting to the agoge and then joining a syssition and going off on suicide missions is it if latter day list writers aren't going to accept that as a Spartiate you're a bit special now is it? :wink:

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Post by spike » Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:42 pm

stevoid wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:You're not going to get any more descrition that is in the rules as these things are necessarily fuzzy in order that there is leeway to get the correct result on the table top.

Oh, and as there were, at most, only a couple of FoG bases of Spartans at Thermopylai it really isn't a good example on which to base their grading when in army sized numbers :twisted:
Not in army sized numbers maybe, but perhaps enough to allow 2-4 bases as there is evidence that Spartans exhibited such behavior/capability?

Also, the FOG rules state that the figure to men ratio is a floating concept based on the type/size of battle being fought.

Note I don't own and am not planning on owning a Spartan army - I just find it hard to accept that the elite martial state of classical times, with a solid history of exemplary bravery and military prowess, does not have the option to have any elite troops.

Cheers,

Steve

edit: PS - it's hardly worth submitting to the agoge and then joining a syssition and going off on suicide missions is it if latter day list writers aren't going to accept that as a Spartiate you're a bit special now is it? :wink:
I agree with Nik its not enough troops for even 2 bases, 300 Spartans is approx 1 base under the scale within the Classical Greek list.

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Post by stevoid » Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:53 pm

Note comment about non-fixed nature of men-base ratios in FOG plus I'm not arguing based on the 300 alone but that is just one example of potential Spartan eliteness :-)

Steve

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Post by hammy » Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:53 pm

stevoid wrote: Not in army sized numbers maybe, but perhaps enough to allow 2-4 bases as there is evidence that Spartans exhibited such behavior/capability?

Also, the FOG rules state that the figure to men ratio is a floating concept based on the type/size of battle being fought.
I think that if you take a small BG of superior spartans and then put an IC fighting in the front rank the end result will be more than hard enough to slaughter anything the Persians throw at them. Even war rhinos ;)

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Post by nikgaukroger » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:16 am

stevoid wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:
Note I don't own and am not planning on owning a Spartan army - I just find it hard to accept that the elite martial state of classical times, with a solid history of exemplary bravery and military prowess, does not have the option to have any elite troops.
At drilled superior they are much better than any other hoplites apart from the Theban Sacred band types who are only availabel as a single BG. Those are the contemporaries they were measured against and their rating in the game ensures they will perfom as per history which is the aim. By being Superior they are the elite of the classical Greek world.

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Post by stevoid » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:53 am

Thanks for your explanations Nik. I guess I just think that some homoioi are more equal that others :wink:

Steve

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Post by shall » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:56 am

We have reserved elites for very special troops - even more special than Spartans.

Also in game balance terms a mass of Superior Off Spearmen is a fairly formidable force due to the numbers involved.

I think Armoured Superior Off Spearmen with an IC attached would have survived a fair while at thermopolae but ultimately have demised more due to base losses than cohesion drops - which seems about right to me.

Si

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Post by clivevaughan » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:14 pm

Hammy
So how does FoG classify war rhinos?

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Post by shall » Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:30 pm

Saving those for the hollywood special armies supplement - mid 2009 - along with rolling flaming logs and catapults that fire wasps nests .... :wink:

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Post by gregrussell » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:56 am

Spartans are and always will be elite troops particular middle period.
the fact that fog fails to recognise this in no way detracts from the historical facts and it wud be fairto say that 3500-4000 men wud fall in to this category in this period.Their personal battlefield behavior bares this fact out as well as training in drill pyshical fitness and corps elan to ignore what were supreme achievements with limited resources flys fancifully in the face of what are really poor reasonings for there down grade.
its a shame that the reasonings of a few ride supreme over what was historical proof. regards greg russell

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Post by carlos » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:12 am

Greg, you got the hots for those physically fit and elanish Spartans, don't you?

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Post by kermit » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:08 am

Well Greg is right, I mean thebans get to be elite? girls the lot of them.
Yet spartans don't?

Ba humbug!

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Post by shall » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:10 am

What characterised the Spartans was the high quality of large numbers of troops. The best reflection of this in FOG - and you'll see this more when you play - is decent quantites of superior BGs. In period the army certainly is "elite" in that it is the only one that can field such a force so the Spartans when taken as a whole are by far the hardest army in that period, along with Romans.

Its a question of definition and game balance. Elite is reserved for specialist guard units that were exceptional in their own right but small in quantities in the main. One could argue that Spartans could have 1 BG of these but in game balance terms it doesn't matter as what gives the Spartans their own special flavour is 5-10,000 superior hoplites being 4-6 BG of Drilled Armoured Superior Offensive spearmen. These are hard as nails. A Theban army will be no match for it base for base as they get good BG an Spartans get complete battlelines of seriously tought stuff. So we have designed the lists and the rules to get the feel of every army right top down. I expect when you see them in action against each other you will see what I mean. I have used Spartans several times and its a very tough beastie to face....

Hope that helps those spartaphiles amongst you ... like me! :)

Si

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Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:13 am

kermit wrote:Well Greg is right, I mean thebans get to be elite? girls the lot of them.
Yet spartans don't?

Ba humbug!
Thebans don't get to be "Elite" either, the sacred band are "Superior".

But guys, don't get hung up on a word. Everything is relative. "Superior" hoplites are the Elite of the hoplite world. The vast majority of hoplites are "Average", some are even "Poor".

Under FOG Spartans will beat seven kinds of sh*te out of any of their historical opponents.

If it is any consolation Teutonic knights, Templars and Hospitallers are only "Superior" too. (Cue new flame war).

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Post by kustenjaeger » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:39 am

Greetings

In a friendly or scenario game I imagine that there would be nothing to stop you experimenting with Spartan citizens as elites and see what happens.

Regards
Edward

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Post by hammy » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:41 am

kustenjaeger wrote:Greetings

In a friendly or scenario game I imagine that there would be nothing to stop you experimenting with Spartan citizens as elites and see what happens.

Regards
To be honest as elites they will do just the same as the do as superiors, win.......

If anything massed superior is better than a small amount of elite.

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